[In-goal] Kick From Own In-goal

[Speedymetric]

Could anyone please tell me what the ruling is for the following scenario in an Under 14's game?

Defensive scrum on own 5m line (in this case the scrum was non contested, assuming this makes no difference though) halfback passes ball back into own in-goal where fly half kicks the ball out on the full and untouched just over the 22m line.

Thanks

 

[chesref]

Could anyone please tell me what the ruling is for the following scenario in an Under 14's game?

Defensive scrum on own 5m line (in this case the scrum was non contested, assuming this makes no difference though) halfback passes ball back into own in-goal where fly half kicks the ball out on the full and untouched just over the 22m line.

Thanks

Line out to non kicking team where it crossed the touch line.
The kick was inside the 22. Had the kick gone over the touch in goal or dead ball line then it would have been attacking side 5m scrum as defending team took it into in goal.

 

[Speedymetric]

Line out to non kicking team where it crossed the touch line.
The kick was inside the 22. Had the kick gone over the touch in goal or dead ball line then it would have been attacking side 5m scrum as defending team took it into in goal.

Thank you. I thought so, but yesterday the referee for the under 14's team I coach ruled that it was a 5m scrum to the attacking team. They ended up scoring the winning try after a few phases of play from the scrum. As the kick had occurred in the corner furthest from our bench we had no idea why a scrum had been called and after the try was awarded were told it was because we had taken the ball back into our own in-goal and because the ball did not bounce before going out it was a scrum to the opposition and the touch judge (who was only a volunteer parent from the other team) backed the ref saying it was the correct decision. I was dumbfounded and was sure I had seen this happen week in week out in all levels of rugby and had never seen a 5m scrum awarded against the kicking team.

 

[Pegleg]

Let's be charitable and say he was mistaken.

 

[Staffs_Ref]

Let's be charitable and say he was mistaken.

You're being very kind, Pegleg. :smile:

 

[ChrisR]

Add this to the Rugby Myths. That makes me wonder what else he was making up as he went along.

 

[Nigib]

Add this to the Rugby Myths. That makes me wonder what else he was making up as he went along.

Unfortunately Law 6(a)4(a) covers those who don't know the Laws as well as the ones that do

 

[Christy]

Hi speedymetric .
As a new associated ref my self , i think its ok for appointed refs to make these mistakes & be in a nice manner asked by coaches in a nice manner after game , to clarify decision .( under age games are targetted by ref association appointees to let new refs learn )
Dont be thinking that these refs dont know how to / or havent played rugby before .

any player no matter what division profesional or not , if asked to ref a game ,,couldnt do it properly .
This is because reffing a game is totally different to playing .even if they played for 20 years .
Because there are so many laws , of how a game can or can not restart. & similar
Its a different kind of pressure ( some can handle it ,,some cant )

Just to be clear , when i say ask ref to clarify decision , im not suggesting coach view is that knock on never occured & ref says it did ,,sort of conversation .

But simply asking , how does a certain infringement restart , as your description above reads.

The parent lines man who took up challenge of running line , i say well done . ( assuming he stayed neutral ish )
His / her duties can only be to locate where ball went into touch & kick at goal duties only .

I too had a situation where , kick inside 22 kicked out on full from free kick that i had awarded ,where parent linesman in a nice ish manner suggested the throw in ( by his team ) should be where ball was kicked from . ( near 5 meter line ) & not out past 22 meter line where it went out .

I stuck to my guns & awarded line out to his team where ball actually left field

It did put doubt in my own mind , so when i got home i checked , & was found to be correct in my decision .

Hopefully your ref will do same & learn from his mistake ..


Finally
As a youth coach my self for last 4 years ,,i didnt realise how much of the laws i didnt know ,,( i thought i had seen & done it all ).
Reffereing has made me a better coach ( to be honest my passion is now referreing )

All ref societys always need more refs ,,i aplore all coaches & x players to give it a go

 

[leaguerefaus]

I must say, I'm quite intolerant of law errors. Seeing something incorrectly is one thing, but not knowing the laws is not acceptable of a referee.

 

[Rushforth]

First of all, welcome to the two new members here.

Unfortunately Law 6(a)4(a) covers those who don't know the Laws as well as the ones that do

Fortunately

The majority of errors we make - at any level - are by omission. Whilst that does include not knowing a law, it is far more likely to be poor positioning at grassroots.

As Christy said, after the match this kind of error can be politely discussed, be it by coach, captain, or earnest player. During the match, the ref is always right, and it adds nothing to the game if players start complaining.

 

[Pegleg]

Sadly here is Wales Rugby up to under 16 is refereed by one of the home coaches. It is not unusual for these sort of "errors" to be made. What is unusual if for the away side to benefit for the error. Indeed I know clubs who will ask if I (among others) will travel to their away games as an independent referee to try and ensure fair play. Usually the home side turns down the request.

All our coaches are require to sit a level one referee course so should not be making basic law errors. So, in the case of Wales, I refute Christy's post (I accept in England etc it may well be different). Here it is blatent cheating simple as.

I've long argued for some sort of independent appointment system at mini, junior and up to U16 level as some teams are notorious for their cheating. It is very sad that it happens, But, there it is! A problem we, in Wales, have to get to grips with.

 

[Dickie E]

Sadly here is Wales Rugby up to under 26 is refereed by one of the home coaches. It is not unusual for these sort of "errors" to be made. What is unusual if for the away side to benefit for the error. Indeed I know clubs who will ask if I (among others) will travel to their away games as an independent referee to try and ensure fair play. Usually the home side turns down the request.

All our coaches are require to sit a level one referee course so should not be making basic law errors. So, in the case of Wales, I refute Christy's post (I accept in England etc it may well be different). Here it is blatent cheating simple as.

I've long argued for some sort of independent appointment system at mini, junior and up to U16 level as some teams are notorious for their cheating. It is very sad that it happens, But, there it is! A problem we, in Wales, have to get to grips with.

Interesting. A recent school's team from my parish toured Ireland, Wales, Scotland and the Continent. There was a general feeling from players & supporters that the Welsh refs were prone to one-sided "errors"

 

[Pegleg]

No point is us not facing the truth. I know I'll be unpopular for saying the truth. But the evidence is there for all to see.

 

[didds]

I must say, I'm quite intolerant of law errors. Seeing something incorrectly is one thing, but not knowing the laws is not acceptable of a referee.

I'd be slightly more charitable in that everyone can make a mistake.

But this is clearly a personal wierdness type thing. I don't think it can honestly go down as a rugby myth, because it has at best two proponents, and its entirely likely the the parent TJ just went along with the ref cos the parent TJ didn't know any better (and as a TJ isn't supposed to).

But then again, this was U14s so its likely the ref is not a real ref, just a coach with a whistle.

The alarming issue is that somebody who probably as coaching u14s has been in the game for a few years at least, and yet has not watched and THOUGHT about the game at all in that time to understand that his own thought process just doesn't fit with anything he can ever have seen... or actually makes any sense whatsoever.

We could maybe have a "weird personal law understandings" thread. I won't say "refs" cos coaches are just as guilty as coming up with some weird ideas too of their own!



didds

 

[Staffs_Ref]

But then again, this was U14s so its likely the ref is not a real ref, just a coach with a whistle.

The alarming issue is that somebody who probably as coaching u14s has been in the game for a few years at least, and yet has not watched and THOUGHT about the game at all in that time to understand that his own thought process just doesn't fit with anything he can ever have seen... or actually makes any sense whatsoever.

didds

Fair point, didds.

It does worry me more than a little, that there seem to be a significant number of coaches involved with younger kids who have quite basic gaps in their knowledge of the laws of the game. Nobody is expecting perfection and, having done it myself, I am appreciative of the time given up by these people on a voluntary basis in order to allow young people to be involved in the sport. However, it is concerning that some very basic law errors are not only being made during matches, but also being actively mistaught in training sessions.

 

[didds]

During the match, the ref is always right, and it adds nothing to the game if players start complaining.

Can someone explain that to Dan Biggar?

didds

 

[didds]

Fair point, didds.

It does worry me more than a little, that there seem to be a significant number of coaches involved with younger kids who have quite basic gaps in their knowledge of the laws of the game. Nobody is expecting perfection and, having done it myself, I am appreciative of the time given up by these people on a voluntary basis in order to allow young people to be involved in the sport. However, it is concerning that some very basic law errors are not only being made during matches, but also being actively mistaught in training sessions.

You and me both Staffs! I come here for exactly these reasons (as well as enjoying everyone's "company" here).

I'd hate to think I was coaching something that was actually "wrong" because I was ignorant.
I had an example this a season, tho that was a case of not realising something I knew at the time - it involved a blindside winger acting as a extra back row at a scrum in working ourselves out of our 22m area which required him to take a pass direct form the scrum half running a tight line . As soon as I got home I had that DOH! moment as he can't obviously encroach closer than 5m until the ball is retrived from the scum!

twit I am!

didds

 

[DocY]

To echo Pegleg's point - the one-eyedness of coaches when I get to meet them (U18 - lots of them move up the age groups with the same group of kids) is remarkable! I really do wonder what went on when they refereed. I must add that some of them are very good, but others really aren't - anything the opposition do, however immaterial, should be penalised, but any time their players are penalised is because the ref's crooked.

To the OP,
Not wishing to cast dispersions on your players, but was the decision really given as described? I've had lots of coaches (usually at youth level) question why I've carded a player: "he said you carded him for [insert non-existent offence here]" "no, I carded him for [insert actual offence]"

 

[Pegleg]

Sorry post 11 should read U16 if admin can edit I'd be grateful.

 

[didds]

.

All our coaches are require to sit a level one referee course so should not be making basic law errors. So, in the case of Wales, I refute Christy's post (I accept in England etc it may well be different). Here it is blatent cheating simple as.

Its an obvious conclusion. I would suggest that brainfarts and incompetence may also play a part, but I'm being kind maybe

I've long argued for some sort of independent appointment system at mini, junior and up to U16 level as some teams are notorious for their cheating. It is very sad that it happens, But, there it is! A problem we, in Wales, have to get to grips with.

Could be that would work in Wales of course, but my perception from cricket here in England in leagues where clubs are expected to put up an umpire every weekend for them to ump at other fixtures than their "own" clubs, is that this struggles as people don't want to umpire anywhere but their own club - they don't want to spend their Sat/Sun afternoons & early evenings spent with strangers. Then you maybe end up people grudgingly doing it, and possibly even the least able umpires as people get emotionally blackmailed into it to help their club, but they actually aren't very good umpires. The rule creates as many problems as it solves.

That's not to say it isn't worth pursuing as a concept of course, just that the end result may not be as meaningful as hoped

didds