Knock-on offside scenario

[damo]

I had a scenario in my game today that I want the forum's collective wisdom on. I won't say what I ruled yet because I want to hear what others think unclouded by what I actually did.

Orange v Blue. First XV high school game for what it's worth.

Orange restart after a try. They kick fairly short. 2 Blue players line up to take the kick about 12 metres from halfway, one directly in front of the other. Due to poor communication, both grab at the ball at almost the same time, but the player behind knocks the ball directly into the others hands. The second player was in front of the first, but they were practically touching each other. If it matters there were Orange players advancing and pretty close to the ball.

What is the call? PK for offside or scrum (either for knock-on or accidental offside).

One of the captains challenged my ruling after the game (very politely), and it made me wonder if I was correct.

 

[ChrisR]

Either way it's a scrum to Orange for knock-on then accidental offside (unless you felt that the offside player had made a deliberate move to play the ball instead of acting reflexively).

 

[Ian_Cook]

If the offside player was so close that he could not have reacted in time to keep his hands away, I would say scrum for accidental offside, Orange ball.

 

[Pinky]

PK for offside. Seems harsh, but that is what should happen.

 

[crossref]

I think you have to see it to make the judgement. The way you describe it makes me think scrum. But I can imagine that if I saw it I might say pk

 

[SimonSmith]

Unknown variable, for me:
Did Blue's actions deny Orange their advantage?

For me, if Orange wouldn't have regathered, it's a scrum. If Orange would have gathered the ball and played...it's PK.

It's not just the actions of Blue, but the impact on the non-offending team

 

[Rich_NL]

Scrum for accidental offside, if the second player then played the ball, penalty.

 

[Taff]

If the offside player was so close that he could not have reacted in time to keep his hands away, I would say scrum for accidental offside.

What he said. :biggrin:

 

[Ciaran Trainor]

Accidental offside, scrum.

 

[damo]

I think that's about as good a consensus as one can expect on RR.

I awarded a scrum for accidental offside because I thought that the knock from the player to the player in front was effectively simultaneous. The player in front was just going for the ball and it bobbled from the player behind into his hands. I felt at the time that a PK in that scenario would have been incredibly harsh.

The orange captain asked me about this decision at the time and I just said I thought it was accidental offside and he accepted it. I did feel slightly uneasy about it because the player in front played the ball and ran forward, which definitely prevented the orange players getting the ball.

After the game the Orange captain and coach came up and asked very politely about the decision. His argument was that even though the player in front grabbed the ball instinctively, he prevented his players from getting to the ball. It made me wonder if I was too lenient, especially given this was a first XV high school game - these are supposed to be some of the top high school players in the Union.

 

[damo]

Unknown variable, for me:
Did Blue's actions deny Orange their advantage?

For me, if Orange wouldn't have regathered, it's a scrum. If Orange would have gathered the ball and played...it's PK.

It's not just the actions of Blue, but the impact on the non-offending team

That used to be the law, but that requirement is no longer in the lawbook. Having said that, I tend to agree that is a factor in the decision making, but it isn't specifically in the law anymore.

Based on this criteria alone this tends to support a PK. If the player in front had not been there and the ball had just spilled forward the orange players would probably have got to the ball first.

 

[Dickie E]

Was it C & O that the offside deliberately infringed? If not, scrum

 

[damo]

Was it C & O that the offside deliberately infringed? If not, scrum

He deliberately played the ball.

Q: Did he have time to realise the other player had touched it and pull his hands away? Was he deliberately offside?
A: No I don't think so.

 

[ChrisR]

He deliberately played the ball.

Q: Did he have time to realise the other player had touched it and pull his hands away? Was he deliberately offside?
A: No I don't think so.

This is the crux, not the proximity of Orange. Scrum Orange.

 

[DocY]

From what you've described, a PK sounds harsh.

Two guys both going for the ball and one of them knocks on - I'd call a PK in such circumstances 'lack of empathy'

 

[Not Kurt Weaver]

From what you've described, a PK sounds harsh.

Two guys both going for the ball and one of them knocks on - I'd call a PK in such circumstances 'lack of empathy'

2nd best post ever on RR

 

[Pinky]

2017 laws 11.7. Sanction is PK.

 

[ianh5979]

2nd best post ever on RR

Go on then i will ask, what was the best?

 

[Shelflife]

For me the criteria is whether or not the player in front denies the opposition the chance to play the ball. If they do its a pen, if they dont its a scrum.

Eg A ball is kicked deep, blue 15 ko and blue 14 deliberately picks it up, Red player is 30m away. They havent denied red the chance to play the ball so its a scrum.

The OPs senario for me is a pen.

 

[Taff]

For me the criteria is whether or not the player in front denies the opposition the chance to play the ball. If they do its a pen, if they dont its a scrum. Eg A ball is kicked deep, blue 15 ko and blue 14 deliberately picks it up, Red player is 30m away. They havent denied red the chance to play the ball so its a scrum. The OPs senario for me is a pen.

If it's "deliberate" then how can it be a scrum?

A scrum is the sanction for accidental offside. I don't think it can be a scrum and deliberate.