Knock on "options"?

[Pegleg]

A player near the touchline receives a pass. He fumbles the ball forward and kicks it into touch before it touches the ground.

Woudl you award the scrum or offer the option (lineout)?

 

[chrismtl]

Kicked into touch for me based on your description. Lineout is the only option.

 

[pwhaling]

KO into touch. Scrum/LO options.

 

[Ian_Cook]

A player near the touchline receives a pass. He fumbles the ball forward and kicks it into touch before it touches the ground.

Wouldyou award the scrum or offer the option (lineout)?

There has been much debate around that point... can a player who has lost or dropped the ball, avoid a knock on by getting a boot to the ball.

[LAWS]DEFINITION: KNOCK-ON
A knock-on occurs when a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward,
or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits
the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another
player before the original player can catch it.[/LAWS]

The Law would seem to say that a player cannot "recover" a knock-on by any other means but catching the ball, but increasingly I see referees at all levels allowing such a recovery by knocking the ball backwards before it touches the ground.

On that basis, I would say that if the player was skilled enough to get an intentional boot to the ball, the kick is good, and award a line-out.

 

[crossref]

It's a knock on. Not a knock on into touch.
Scrum

 

[Dickie E]

Lets forget about touch for a moment.

If a player fumbles the ball forward then sticks out his foot and makes contact, that is a knock-on for me. What I look for is a player dropping the ball forward for the purpose of kicking it. So a successful kick from the hand (IMO) requires 2 elements: an intent to kick and contact with the boot.

So, back to the OP. The fumble forward is a knock on (IMO) irrespective of the foot contact. Ball has then gone into touch. Scrum/lineout option.

 

[Ian_Cook]

Lets forget about touch for a moment.

If a player fumbles the ball forward then sticks out his foot and makes contact, that is a knock-on for me. What I look for is a player dropping the ball forward for the purpose of kicking it. So a successful kick from the hand (IMO) requires 2 elements: an intent to kick and contact with the boot.

So, back to the OP. The fumble forward is a knock on (IMO) irrespective of the foot contact. Ball has then gone into touch. Scrum/lineout option.

I more or less agree.

Its either;

► a line-out/scrum option if you think it was a knock on (because you don't know its a knock on until the player fails to regather the ball, which then goes into touch), or

► a line-out if you think the intent was to kick the ball.

I cannot see any way that only a scrum can be awarded.


Dickie. I have seen an increasing number of referees not ruling knock-on when a player fumbles the ball and then bats the ball back to a team-mate without catching it. What is your view on that?

 

[Dickie E]

I cannot see any way that only a scrum can be awarded.

I think the logic may be:
1. player knocks on - play advantage
2. ball rolls around on the ground a bit
3. original player kicks ball into touch

No advantage for the knock on - back for a scrum

 

[Dickie E]

Dickie. I have seen an increasing number of referees not ruling knock-on when a player fumbles the ball and then bats the ball back to a team-mate without catching it. What is your view on that?

Yes, I see it fairly frequently (couple of times per season) and I don't remember any referee ever calling it for a knock-on. Despite not meeting the precise wording of the law, I am OK with it

 

[menace]

Yes, I see it fairly frequently (couple of times per season) and I don't remember any referee ever calling it for a knock-on. Despite not meeting the precise wording of the law, I am OK with it

Although technically lost forward, I don't think it would sit that well with the crowd when they see the ball going clearly backwards...it doesn't look right to call that 'knock on'. The ref would come off as not knowing what they are doing if they call a ball going backwards as a knock on.
I've never ever seen a referee call one of these as a knock on or lost forward - even at test level? Has anyone ever seen one called?

 

[Phil E]

It's a knock on. Not a knock on into touch.
Scrum

I have seen an increasing number of referees not ruling knock-on when a player fumbles the ball and then bats the ball back to a team-mate without catching it. What is your view on that?

Crossref, its not a knock on until the ball touches the ground or another player, if the first piece of ground it touches is in touch, then its options.

Ian, it's a knock on. Lost forward and not caught by the same player.

[LAWS]A knock-on occurs when a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward,
or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits
the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another
player before the original player can catch it.[/LAWS]

 

[ddjamo]

Beat me to it phil. Agree.

 

[beckett50]

KO into touch. Scrum/LO options.

This.

 

[Ian_Cook]

Ian, it's a knock on. Lost forward and not caught by the same player.

[LAWS]A knock-on occurs when a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward,
or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits
the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another
player before the original player can catch it.[/LAWS]

Phil

I agree. I'm just saying that I have seen batting the fumbled ball backwards ruled play-on at every level from down in the weeds to elite, and I wonder where this idea is coming from.

 

[Blackberry]

As a player I could never really get my head round when a juggle becomes a throw forward (I still think many in the rugby community don't entirely understand the difference twixt a throw forward and a knock on. A prolonged but successful juggle can become a throw forward.) As a ref I treat it as a throw forward if the player's prolonged juggle gives her/him an advantage she wouldn't have had if she'd caught it cleanly.

 

[Ian_Cook]

As a player I could never really get my head round when a juggle becomes a throw forward (I still think many in the rugby community don't entirely understand the difference twixt a throw forward and a knock on. A prolonged but successful juggle can become a throw forward.) As a ref I treat it as a throw forward if the player's prolonged juggle gives her/him an advantage she wouldn't have had if she'd caught it cleanly.

Juggling the ball is not really what I am talking about

Player receives a pass from a team-mate, but hard hands results in him knocking the ball forwards. However, before it touches the ground, he manages to dive forward and get a hand to it, batting it backwards where a team-mate catches it.

According to Law, this is a knock-on because the player failed to catch the ball before it touched another player; his team-mate. However, I am seeing referees calling play-on.

 

[OB..]

As a player I could never really get my head round when a juggle becomes a throw forward (I still think many in the rugby community don't entirely understand the difference twixt a throw forward and a knock on. A prolonged but successful juggle can become a throw forward.) As a ref I treat it as a throw forward if the player's prolonged juggle gives her/him an advantage she wouldn't have had if she'd caught it cleanly.

I disagree. A throw forward is an act by a player who has hold of the ball.

 

[OB..]

Juggling the ball is not really what I am talking about

Player receives a pass from a team-mate, but hard hands results in him knocking the ball forwards. However, before it touches the ground, he manages to dive forward and get a hand to it, batting it backwards where a team-mate catches it.

According to Law, this is a knock-on because the player failed to catch the ball before it touched another player; his team-mate. However, I am seeing referees calling play-on.

I can't remember seeing it at all, at least not recently. Can you dig out some video?

 

[Ian_Cook]

I can't remember seeing it at all, at least not recently. Can you dig out some video?

Not recent, but

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-koypP7UQLo

and this (40:38 on the YT time if it doesn't go straight there)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?&v=5-DiJvHMXPw#t=2438

I have also seen similar in a couple of Super Rugby matches this year and a local club match here earlier in the year.

 

[Blackberry]

I disagree. A throw forward is an act by a player who has hold of the ball.

Isn't that a forward pass? I think the part of law 12 is to stop people juggling their way upfield.