[Law] "Knock-on"

Arabcheif

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What's the call on this?

Ball tapped down from line-out, 9 catches and passes to the 10. Ball goes through 10's hands (without touching them), hits his stomach and falls forward to the ground.

My understanding of this is play on? He's not in possession therefore I believe for the knock-on it would need to come off (and go forward) a hand(s) or arm(s). Am I right?
 

Dickie E


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[LAWS]Knock-on: When a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it. [/LAWS]

Although it would be a brave ref who didn't call the OP as a knock on.
 

crossref


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What's the call on this?

Ball tapped down from line-out, 9 catches and passes to the 10. Ball goes through 10's hands (without touching them), hits his stomach and falls forward to the ground.

My understanding of this is play on? He's not in possession therefore I believe for the knock-on it would need to come off (and go forward) a hand(s) or arm(s). Am I right?

I agree with Dickie. I think if you called 'play on' here, then the rest of your afternoon would be an unhappy time.

If the #10 spread his arms wide and chested the ball down like a footballer might - that would be play on..
 

Arabcheif

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See, I get that. But technically I'm correct yeah? I'd like to think that as long as I was consistent with the call the teams wouldn't mind.
 

Phil E


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If you don't drop it, I won't blow it :smile:
 

ChrisR

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I agree with Dickie. I think if you called 'play on' here, then the rest of your afternoon would be an unhappy time.

If the #10 spread his arms wide and chested the ball down like a footballer might - that would be play on..

I don't agree with this. Call it as you see it. The expected call may be 'knock-on' but the correct call is 'play-on'. The players will respect you if your call is consistent with what you saw.

"I call what I see and I don't think you want it any other way".
 

crossref


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It's not a Law problem, is a matter of fact

The 10 tried to catch the ball and it went through his hands

All thirty players are expecting a knock on

You, as ref, are saying you have eyes so sharp that you can see that the ball failed to touch his hands either on the way past or on the way back , so play on

I don't think that's a wise call .. you are making yourself centre of attention , with what everyone will think is really odd call ... And how sure are you anyway about it not touching his hands ?
 

crossref


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I don't agree with this. Call it as you see it. The expected call may be 'knock-on' but the correct call is 'play-on'. The players will respect you if your call is consistent with what you saw.

"I call what I see and I don't think you want it any other way".

as a ref you are trying to facilitate the best game of rugby you can for the players. If you make a call that needlessly puts you at odds with all thirty of them, they lose confidence in the ref, and it's uphill from there, and no one has a good time.

alternatively peep, knock on, and happy days.
 

Balones

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In general terms if it was obvious it didn’t touch the arms then it must be ‘play on’ but if it wasn’t then by all means blow. I think it is one of those circumstances that we have to adopt the opposite approach to what we generally say about C&O. If it is not clear and obvious to the ref then it is very likely that it won’t be for the players or any spectators or assessor. Therefore doing the generally expected can be justified. As a performance reviewer I would expect if it was C&O for the ref to play on and communicate the decision either dynamically or at the next opportunity at a stoppage or at downtime.
 

Arabcheif

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To give a bit more context. I was playing standing right next to the ref at the LO. He played knock on advantage, they kick the ball - advantage over then it went out of play. I mentioned that it came off 10's stomach any so it wasn't a knock on in that circumstance. (I don't think he knows I'm a ref but if he's at our soc meeting tonight he will lol).

He told me that it was irrelevant that it was off his stomach and advised that a knock on was anywhere between the shins and shoulder This implies that he's aware the ball didn't touch the 10's hands. I replied this isn't what's described in the definitions but said it didn't matter ATM, we can chat on Monday (at the soc meeting). He told me to "shut-it."

That's not went down well. I'll def not be shutting it this evening.
 

crossref


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Hmmm ...

1 I'd love to hear the refs account of this
2 doing one game doesn't make you a ref
3 when playing, during the game a good ref keeps his views to himself

:)
 

Arabcheif

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1. I'm sure he'd say I was a gobby tw*t. The impression I got was that he was aware the ball didn't touch the 10's hands and was telling me that it didn't matter, as it was a knock on anyway.
2. Fair enough but it still doesn't make me wrong.
3. I've never seen a ref keep his opinions to himself when playing (or even watching). That must mean I've never seen a good ref lol (btf, this might be true and I might not even be a good ref but I'll be consistently good or bad for both teams).
 

Decorily

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Well maybe the referee was of the opinion that the player lost possession of the ball and it went forward ie knock on!
 

ChrisR

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as a ref you are trying to facilitate the best game of rugby you can for the players. If you make a call that needlessly puts you at odds with all thirty of them, they lose confidence in the ref, and it's uphill from there, and no one has a good time.

alternatively peep, knock on, and happy days.

I agree with this. But . . . applying the laws to the facts is a good place to start. If the ball comes off his hands but goes straight down (not forward) then it's "Play on!" even though there's going to be a howl from the ops.

Now, if you're unsure as whether the ball went forward off hands or arms then that's a different issue. Reflexively you'd probably whistle just as all the players would react likewise. But don't call it if you see it otherwise.
 

crossref


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One problem with hypothetical examples is that we all picture the scenario in our minds eye and probably are envisaging it differently.

I think Balones post #9 is pretty much the perfect answer..
 

ChrisR

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What I envisioned was as described in the OP. I'm envisioning that I see the ball go through the hands and then bounce forward off the chest. I'm envisioning "Play on!".
 

Rich_NL

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1. I'm sure he'd say I was a gobby tw*t. The impression I got was that he was aware the ball didn't touch the 10's hands and was telling me that it didn't matter, as it was a knock on anyway.
2. Fair enough but it still doesn't make me wrong.
3. I've never seen a ref keep his opinions to himself when playing (or even watching). That must mean I've never seen a good ref lol (btf, this might be true and I might not even be a good ref but I'll be consistently good or bad for both teams).

Law 6.5.a - the referee is the sole judge of fact and of law during a match. So if you have a ref who makes (in your eyes) the wrong call, you don't gain anything by pointing it out or waving your superior law knowledge in their face. It distracts them, puts their back up at a time when they're trying to maintain authority and run a game, and it makes sure that if it was an accident or a miscall, they're certain to make it again because they know it's been picked up on and they have to show consistency. And you might even be wrong. So if it really bothers you or you think they could make a significant improvement, have a word after the game.

When I'm playing, I try to be the kind of player I'd like to ref. It's not always easy when you don't have the kind of ref you'd like to play for, but the benefit of being a ref who plays is not that you get to correct the ref mid-match. It's that you're better equipped to notice what they ping and what they let go, where their blind spots are, and know how to make a good impression and not look guilty :)
 

Arabcheif

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@Rich_NL, I hear you mate. And for 90% of the time, i just leave it, I may have a frustrated shake of the head and if somethings unbelievable sometimes I'll frustratingly ask "Really" or say "Oh c'mon." While look up to the sky. I've never had and argument. And when the ref on Saturday disagreed, I simply said I'll speak to you on Monday. Didn't engage in a discussion after that. I did laugh once because there was a very amusing call the he awarded a Pk for hands in the ruck when a) there was no ruck b) the support player of the tackled player picked it up, promptly fell over his team mate, placed the ball back to his 9. He awarded them a PK for us having hands in the ruck even though none of our players were near the twol (tackler had rolled away by then and was on his way back to his feet about 1.5m away).
It was just another one of a long line of rubbish calls. One of which was a YC for a high tackle that he didn't card the player for (that was a player in my team that should've been carded).

I get that refs are human and mistakes happen, no doubt I'll make a whole bunch of them. But again, we're all only human and there's only so much we can take. I've been frustrated with one other ref performance in my time. yeah there's been the odd decision that's been how can he/she call that but not to the point that I've been with this fella from Saturday (and the other one was last season). Like I said refs are human and can make mistakes and I understand this but when the mistakes are more common than the correct calls that's when I start getting frustrated.
 

crossref


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Well, a lot of time refs here might respond by saying .. why don't you get a whistle a try it yourself ... Which you are doing so good on you for that.

Later this season when you have hopefully done a dozen games or so it will be great to see if the experience changes your views or approach
 

Decorily

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Well maybe the referee was of the opinion that the player lost possession of the ball and it went forward ie knock on!

Arabcheif, can you comment on this possibility.
 
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