Law 20.10(d) what do you do after 5 seconds

[Ciaran Trainor]

Is it a reset same team or opposition put in?
Doesn't say in the book.
Dominant scrum could kill the game

 

[thepercy]

Turnover, like ruck and maul "use it".

 

[Pegleg]

Yes I agree.

 

[crossref]

(d)
When a team has the ball at the number 8’s feet, and is trying to move forward but is not succeeding in doing so, the referee will call “use-it” once the ball has been at the number 8’s feet for a reasonable amount of time (3-5 seconds). The team must then use the ball immediately.

 

[chbg]

The U19 Variation for intentionally keeping the ball in the scrum is a FK:

[LAWS]20.9(k) Ball must be released from scrum. A player must not intentionally keep the ball in the scrum once the player’s team has heeled the ball and controls it at the base of the scrum.

Sanction: Free Kick[/LAWS]

Given the absence of a stated sanction, you could (a) re-set same team put in (based on new wheel re-start); (b) re-set, other team put in (based on inability of team to use the ball at their No 8's feet); or (c) FK, if there appears to be intention, or just bloody-mindness. It'll probably depend on hwo the game has been going ... and if any team refuses to / is unable to respond. Probability?

 

[The Fat]

Our instruction from ARU is a turnover scrum

 

[Ian_Cook]

...Doesn't say in the book....

...and WR's illiterate 12 year old proof-readers strike again!!

It makes me wonder whether the people who write these Laws actually have any Law Knowledge?

 

[Dickie E]

[LAWS](d) When a team has the ball at the number 8’s feet, and is trying to move forward but is not succeeding in doing so, the referee will call “use-it” once the ball has been at the number 8’s feet for a reasonable amount of time (3-5 seconds). The team must then use the ball immediately.
[/LAWS]
... and of course this only applies if the team is trying to move forward. If they are not trying to move forward and are quite happy to sit there running down the clock, then this law doesn't apply.

I'll get my coat.

 

[Ciaran Trainor]

This was an interesting debate at our first meeting of the season to discuss the new Laws!
20.4 The team throwing the ball into the scrum seems to cover it.
If you have managed too hook the ball against the head but then can't move, tough, turnover. This seems to contradict the "understanding" that it is a turnover ie different team puts the ball in

(e)
When a scrum remains stationary and the ball does not emerge immediately a further scrum is ordered at the place of the stoppage. The ball is thrown in by the team not in possession at the time of the stoppage.

(f)
When a scrum becomes stationary and does not start moving immediately, the ball must emerge immediately. If it does not a further scrum will be ordered. The ball is thrown in by the team not in possession at the time of the stoppage.

 

[DocY]

...and WR's illiterate 12 year old proof-readers strike again!!

It makes me wonder whether the people who write these Laws actually have any Law Knowledge?

To me, it makes it obvious that they don't!

I suspect, with all these little *ahem* proofreading errors, whoever's checking it already knows what is meant so doesn't see the glaring omission!

 

[OB..]

To me, it makes it obvious that they don't!

I suspect, with all these little *ahem* proofreading errors, whoever's checking it already knows what is meant so doesn't see the glaring omission!

A writes it, B proofreads (not having been involved in the writing). I have just been going through that with the county handbook.

 

[DocY]

A writes it, B proofreads (not having been involved in the writing). I have just been going through that with the county handbook.

I realise that's how it's supposed to be, but they definitely can't be doing it right.

This is a case in point - I can't see how this could have got past proofreading without the proofreader either having a very limited understanding of rugby, or having a pre-conceived idea for the words to conform to.

 

[chbg]

This was an interesting debate at our first meeting of the season to discuss the new Laws!
20.4 The team throwing the ball into the scrum seems to cover it.
If you have managed too hook the ball against the head but then can't move, tough, turnover. This seems to contradict the "understanding" that it is a turnover ie different team puts the ball in

(e)
When a scrum remains stationary and the ball does not emerge immediately a further scrum is ordered at the place of the stoppage. The ball is thrown in by the team not in possession at the time of the stoppage.

(f)
When a scrum becomes stationary and does not start moving immediately, the ball must emerge immediately. If it does not a further scrum will be ordered. The ball is thrown in by the team not in possession at the time of the stoppage.

I can buy (or sell) this argument (less the apparent contradiction "If you have managed too hook the ball against the head but then can't move, tough, turnover. This seems to contradict the "understanding" that it is a turnover ie different team puts the ball in").

 

[beckett50]

As with a ruck, it is turnover ball to the team not in possession. Sorry to the team who won it against the head!

However, in this new era of the #9 no longer under pressure at the base of the scrum the chances of the ball not being used are very slim - and that is another soap box that needs to be brought out although I suspect SimonT has already been on it for some time

 

[Dickie E]

However, in this new era of the #9 no longer under pressure at the base of the scrum

Why do you say that?

 

[The Fat]

Why do you say that?

#9 can no longer move into the slot between the flanker & #8 when following the ball through the oppo's side of the scrum

 

[DocY]

This seems to contradict the "understanding" that it is a turnover ie different team puts the ball in"

But this understanding is just wrong. Until this year the law made no reference to who put the ball in last, just to the team in possession.

 

[TheBFG]

Just to add to the thread......

I asked this question on Saturday, the response (from the head of elite refs, Spredders) was, it's a turn over re-set side not in possession put the ball in, BUT (wait for it!!!!) WR want a re-set scrum side in possession put the ball in :shrug: So pick the bones out of that one!

 

[DocY]

WR want a re-set scrum side in possession put the ball in :shrug: So pick the bones out of that one!

So WR-approved time-wasting!

 

[TheBFG]

Laws@RFU have just confirmed that it should be a re-set scrum, turnover ball.

It is hoped that the match official will have a management strategy to deal with such situations. If we have not been able to manage the situation and the scrum is clearly stationary with the ball clearly at the number 8’s feet for the prescribed time, then it would be a turn over scrum.

Kind regards,
Laws @RFU.com


I have asked if there is going to be a formal announcement?