[Scrum] Law 20 - Under 19 Variation

Staffs_Ref

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The scenario is as follows:


Red are playing Blue in a Colts match. Both teams have full squads with 5 replacements each on the bench. Both teams have identified that they have 2 suitably trained and experienced front row replacements on the bench.


We are 20 minutes into the match and no changes have been made. Then Red #6 receives a yellow card and goes off to the bin for 7 minutes. Three minutes later there is a knock-on which causes a scrum to be awarded.


What would you expect to happen and why?
 

Phil E


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7 a side scrums, no No 8
Blue drop a forward into the backs to make the scrums even and balanced.
 

thepercy


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The above, and front row temporary sub.
 

Taff


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7 a side scrums, no No 8
Blue drop a forward into the backs to make the scrums even and balanced.
+1.

Why? At U19 level all scrums have to have equal number and be balanced - even if they are uncontested.

I suppose Red could bring a back in to play at No 6,7 or No 8 because there is no requirement for those to be trained for that position, unlike FRs and (at U19s) 2nd Rows. In practice though, Red won't bring anyone in and Blue will drop a player.
 

Pegleg

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As is normal the law book is "confused":

U19 variations

20.1 FORMING A SCRUM
(e) In an 8 person scrum the formation must be 3-4-1, with the single player (normally the
Number 8) shoving on the 2 locks. The locks must pack with their heads on either side of
the hooker.
Exception: A team must have fewer than eight players in its scrum when the team cannot
field eight suitably trained players in its scrum due to either the team not fielding a
complete team, or a forward player being sent off or temporarily suspended for foul play, or
a forward player leaving the field because of injury.


And Then

If a team is incomplete and it cannot field eight suitably trained players in its scrum...
scrum formation must be as follows:


And YET then we have:

When a normal scrum takes place, the players in the three front row positions and the two
lock positions must have been suitably trained for these positions.

So WR can't make its mind up how many of the forwards must be STE.

Perhaps it means all 8 must be STE for the scrum but those in the front and second rows must be specifically STE for the position they play in as opposed to scrummaging in general.
 

Taff


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I'm glad you asked the question Staffs Ref because it's made me check the book and I got it wrong earlier.

As Pegleg points out, 20.1(e) doesn't allow a back to replace a missing forward.

20.1 FORMING A SCRUM
(e) In an 8 person scrum the formation must be 3-4-1, with the single player (normally the
Number 8) shoving on the 2 locks. The locks must pack with their heads on either side of
the hooker.
Exception: A team must have fewer than eight players in its scrum when the team cannot
field eight suitably trained players in its scrum due to either the team not fielding a complete team, or a forward player being sent off or temporarily suspended for foul play, or a forward player leaving the field because of injury.

When a normal scrum takes place, the players in the three front row positions and the two
lock positions must have been suitably trained for these positions.

So WR can't make its mind up how many of the forwards must be STE.
What I think it means is that only players who are normally considered Forwards Nos 1-8 (and presumably trained in their normal position) can take part in scrums and players who normally play in the backs can't get involved. I suspect there is an element of arse-covering going on, but better safe than sorry.
 
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Pegleg

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I agree that is probably the point. I just wish they would proof read such important documents.
 

crossref


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The scenario is as follows:


Red are playing Blue in a Colts match. Both teams have full squads with 5 replacements each on the bench. Both teams have identified that they have 2 suitably trained and experienced front row replacements on the bench.


We are 20 minutes into the match and no changes have been made. Then Red #6 receives a yellow card and goes off to the bin for 7 minutes. Three minutes later there is a knock-on which causes a scrum to be awarded.


What would you expect to happen and why?

normally what will happen is seven a side scrums, but if one of the red backs arrives at the scrum to fill in for the missing 6, then it would be eight-a-side scrums. I cannot see anything in the Laws that prevents red from scrumming down with eight players, if they wish (and, if you like, declaring they are STE)
Red effectively have the choice of 7 or 8. Personally I would make them stick with that choice for all the scrums in the YC period.
 
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Staffs_Ref

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As Taff, Pegleg and crossref have all indicated, I think the wording of this law leaves a lot to be desired. This is World Rugby's second attempt at it too, though I am not sure that it is really any clearer than the first attempt was.

Certainly there does seem to be an interpretation by many coaches that the scenario outlined above would automatically trigger a move to 7-man scrums for each side, but I have never been convinced of this and raised the matter with the society in order to get a view. The upshot was as follows:

The key point is the reference to a team being 'incomplete and it cannot field eight suitably trained players in its scrum, the formation must be as follows:
Red are indeed "incomplete" as a result of a forward receiving a yellow card. However, Red are also in a position (by utilising interchanges) to field eight suitably trained players in the scrum. We know from the information given in this scenario that there are two "suitably trained" players on the bench. (Though they could equally well have been on the field and playing in the back line. The key point is that the coach has identified prior to the match that he has "suitably trained" replacements available.) One of these replacements should come on (or into the pack, if they are already on the field and playing in the backs) at the next scrum and at this point another player be nominated to leave the field. (In much the same way as we would handle a scrum at senior level if a front row player was in the bin at the time). The regulations at U19 relate to the front five, so you could argue that any of the backs could come into the back row of the scrum. However, I think it would be unwise to insist on this for the reason that both Taff & Pegleg allude to i.e. that the replacement player should be experienced as a forward in some capacity at least. So, if it is accepted that they have a suitable forward replacement on the bench or elsewhere on the field, then the scrums should remain as 8-a-side and the offending team plays one short in the backs.

Obviously, if the situation were one where there were no "suitably trained" forwards available (because the team started the match short, or had already lost their suitable replacements to injury or dismissal) then scrums should be balanced accordingly with reduced numbers.

This interpretation of the law variation makes perfectly good sense to me, as it rightly addresses the safety aspect, but without allowing the offending team to mitigate the impact of its YC offence by keeping a full back line in situ and, therefore, not granting the non-offending team the opportunity to exploit the additional space.

 

chbg


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Have a look at the original 20.1e:

[LAWS]Exception: When a team is reduced to fewer than fifteen for any reason, then the number of players of each team in the scrum may be similarly reduced. Where a permitted reduction is made by one team, there is no requirement for the other team to make a similar reduction.[/LAWS

The Under 19 Variation applies to the requirement for the other team to match numbers in the scrum, and the possible permutations thereafter, not the ability to reduce numbers in the scrum when playing with fewer than 15 players.
 

Huck2Spit


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Does the team putting into the scrum have any choice in the matter. In practice, and maybe I'm making it up, I feel that if team A is under a froward being sanctioned/ binned and has the put in tobthe scrum then the opponents must match them and reduce numbers and scrum to 7. However if it's the opponents who have the put in and team A is under sanction ( and say has a five-metre scrum and wants to do at 8 man pic) shouldn't A have to match their numbers and allow them to run their play as they are not the ones being penalized. Or are they being penalized for their opposition being penalized/sanctioned?
 

L'irlandais

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under 19 variations are not about penalizing the other team, but about ensuring player safety and a fair contest for the ball[laws]20.1
If a team is without one forward player, then both teams must use a 3-4 formation (i.e. no No.8).[/laws]You cannot have a scrum with 8 against 7 at U19. Even in the senior game they would squeeze a winger in at flanker to even things up a little with 8 against 7 and a half.
 

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Yeah safety for sure, but if you got a big strong #8( and plays designed around using that player at scrum downs) and are not the offending side. Isnt it a shame to not be able to use those parts of your game because if an opponents errors/ penalty. Along the same Likes as defenders match the throwing sides numbers at lineouts should the sanctioned team have to match #s if it's not their put in. STE availability aside.
 

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Yeah safety for sure, but if you got a big strong #8...

NO NO and NO. It's not "Yeah safety for sure blah blah blah" You may not have meant it but what you've typed is far too flippant for a safety issue.

It's


"SAFETY SAFETY SAFETY END OF!"
 

L'irlandais

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. STE availability aside.
on uncontested scrums, you'd be happier to have your number 8 creating a mismatch in the back line.[laws]When a normal scrum takes place, the players in the three front row positions and the two lock positions must have been suitably trained for these positions.
If a team cannot field such suitably trained players because:
either they are not available, or
a player in one of those five positions is injured or
has been sent off for Foul Play and no suitably trained replacement is available, then the referee must order uncontested scrums.
In an uncontested scrum, the teams do not compete for the ball. The team putting in the ball must win it. Neither team is allowed to push the other team away from the mark.[/laws]
 
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Pegleg

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As Taff, Pegleg and crossref have all indicated, I think the wording of this law leaves a lot to be desired. This is World Rugby's second attempt at it too, though I am not sure that it is really any clearer than the first attempt was.

Certainly there does seem to be an interpretation by many coaches that the scenario outlined above would automatically trigger a move to 7-man scrums for each side, but I have never been convinced of this and raised the matter with the society in order to get a view. The upshot was as follows:

The key point is the reference to a team being 'incomplete and it cannot field eight suitably trained players in its scrum, the formation must be as follows:
Red are indeed "incomplete" as a result of a forward receiving a yellow card. However, Red are also in a position (by utilising interchanges) to field eight suitably trained players in the scrum. We know from the information given in this scenario that there are two "suitably trained" players on the bench. (Though they could equally well have been on the field and playing in the back line. The key point is that the coach has identified prior to the match that he has "suitably trained" replacements available.) One of these replacements should come on (or into the pack, if they are already on the field and playing in the backs) at the next scrum and at this point another player be nominated to leave the field. (In much the same way as we would handle a scrum at senior level if a front row player was in the bin at the time). The regulations at U19 relate to the front five, so you could argue that any of the backs could come into the back row of the scrum. However, I think it would be unwise to insist on this for the reason that both Taff & Pegleg allude to i.e. that the replacement player should be experienced as a forward in some capacity at least. So, if it is accepted that they have a suitable forward replacement on the bench or elsewhere on the field, then the scrums should remain as 8-a-side and the offending team plays one short in the backs.

Obviously, if the situation were one where there were no "suitably trained" forwards available (because the team started the match short, or had already lost their suitable replacements to injury or dismissal) then scrums should be balanced accordingly with reduced numbers.

This interpretation of the law variation makes perfectly good sense to me, as it rightly addresses the safety aspect, but without allowing the offending team to mitigate the impact of its YC offence by keeping a full back line in situ and, therefore, not granting the non-offending team the opportunity to exploit the additional space.




I had one a while back: Blue forward gived a red card so the opposition (Red) sent a flanker into the backs (7 V 7). Later Red lost a second row through injury. So here's the question: Do you let the the flanker back into the forwards to cover?

Yes if he is STE as a second row

Or

Yes as he is STE as a forward

or

No?
 

Staffs_Ref

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I had one a while back: Blue forward gived a red card so the opposition (Red) sent a flanker into the backs (7 V 7). Later Red lost a second row through injury. So here's the question: Do you let the the flanker back into the forwards to cover?

Yes if he is STE as a second row

Or

Yes as he is STE as a forward

or

No?
The law variation is quite specific about the front five, so the answer in this particular instance would have to be "Yes, if he is STE as a second row." If he isn't then he would be allowed back in, but scrums would move to uncontested.
 

Pegleg

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That's what I did. But was told I was WRONG. The palyer was not STE fro the second row so I should have gone to 6 v 6. Had he been STE as a 2nd row then we would have allowed him in and stayed contested. Basically he could have only come in IF he'd been able to keep the scrums contested. Otherwise no. A learning point for me.
 

Staffs_Ref

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That's what I did. But was told I was WRONG. The palyer was not STE fro the second row so I should have gone to 6 v 6. Had he been STE as a 2nd row then we would have allowed him in and stayed contested. Basically he could have only come in IF he'd been able to keep the scrums contested. Otherwise no. A learning point for me.
Who told you that you were wrong to do that? Why on earth would you go 6 v 6 uncontested when you can quite legitimately go 7 v 7 uncontested?
 

L'irlandais

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[laws]...Even allowing for this exception, each team must always have at least five players in a scrum.
If a team is incomplete and it cannot field eight suitably trained players in its scrum, the scrum formation must be as follows:
If a team is without one forward player, then both teams must use a 3-4 formation (i.e. no No.8).
If a team is without two forward players, then both teams must use a 3-2-1 formation (i.e. no flankers).
If a team is without three forward players, then both teams must use a 3-2 formation (i.e. only front rows and locks).
When a normal scrum takes place, the players in the three front row positions and the two lock positions must have been suitably trained for these positions.[/laws] I must go back for a more thorough read of the variations on uncontested.
 
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