[Scrum] Law 3....hmmmm...I'll log a protest.

[Donk93953]

USA University level match.....Team Blue does not have sufficiently trained props.
The props have one week of practice under their belts according to Team Blue coach.
Coach of Team Blue asks for unopposed scrums under Law 3.
Team Red claims under Law 3 its a forfeit because Team Blue doesn't have adequately trained players to play prop.
Team Blue's concern appears to be safety.....Team Red wants to keep their number one standing.
I as referee, felt safety was the concern and Law 3 (13) covered the issue.
Hence, uncontested scrums and play on....no ordered forfeiture.
Team Red's coach say they will play under protest.

Your thoughts?

 

[crossref]

1 if a team declare that they don't have suitably trained front row, then you are completely correct to order uncontested scrums. Clearly that is right

What happens next will depend on the competition regulations. In England , various different competitions would have forfeit , a match points penalty (ie starting say 15 points down) , a League points penaly, starting with 14 players or even, in some competitons , no penalty at all.

 

[damo]

1. Play the game with uncontested scrums.

2. File a match report describing situation.

3. Do not get into conversations about what happens point wise. Leave that entirely in the hands of the competition organisers.

4. Tell anyone who asks that it is not up to you.

 

[Marc Wakeham]

Spot on answers. You need to know what happens regarding the avaiability of subs. Anything else pass the report over.

 

[Dickie E]

USA University level match.....Team Blue does not have sufficiently trained props.
The props have one week of practice under their belts according to Team Blue coach.
Coach of Team Blue asks for unopposed scrums under Law 3.
Team Red claims under Law 3 its a forfeit because Team Blue doesn't have adequately trained players to play prop.
Team Blue's concern appears to be safety.....Team Red wants to keep their number one standing.
I as referee, felt safety was the concern and Law 3 (13) covered the issue.
Hence, uncontested scrums and play on....no ordered forfeiture.
Team Red's coach say they will play under protest.

Your thoughts?

You really should have understood the competition rules before leaving home that morning. Maybe Blue were supposed to play the whole game with 14 players. Red would reasonably expect the ref to know & enforce any competition rules.

Always worthwhile having your head honcho on speed dial.

 

[Donk93953]

You really should have understood the competition rules before leaving home that morning. Maybe Blue were supposed to play the whole game with 14 players. Red would reasonably expect the ref to know & enforce any competition rules.

Always worthwhile having your head honcho on speed dial.

Not sure where you came up with 14 players, but that was not a consideration.
They were full sides on the field....just no sufficiently trained props for Team Blue.

 

[crossref]

Not sure where you came up with 14 players, but that was not a consideration.
They were full sides on the field....just no sufficiently trained props for Team Blue.

Most (but not all) of the competitions I ref in, that is what happens .. if a team turns up unable to field a STE front row, they have to start the game with 14 players.

What was the competition ? The regulatikns are most likely on line

 

[damo]

In NZ, the game is forfeited, but there is a direction that the game should still be played.

However the guidance I have always received in situations like this is to not get involved in discourse because it is a matter for the competition committee. Other countries may have different policies, but that is ours.

 

[crossref]

Here the ref needs to know about the regs that affect what happens on the pitch

Does man off apply
How many subs are allowed
What is the sub system (interchange or replacement )
Is there a maximum score differ
Do teams have to match the numbers of players

All the above the ref needs to know .
And every single competition I ref in is different, often in a single competition the regs are different in different divisions

What you DONT have to know is regs about leage penalties , forfeits, fines , player eligibility etc etc as none of that affects what happens actually on the pitch, so doesn't concern the ref

 

[Dickie E]

In NZ, the game is forfeited, but there is a direction that the game should still be played.

If that is true, I think that is a very bad situation. It is forcing coaches to play unqualified players in front row to avoid a forfeit with dire safety risks.

 

[damo]

Well it is true.

http://www.boprugby.co.nz/downloads/2017-NZ-R-DSLVs-and-Smallblacks.pdf

See page 7 (law 3).

I've never had an issue with this TBH. It would take a pretty callous coach to risk his players safety by telling the ref they could play front row when they couldn't.

 

[crossref]

it would be played with uncontested scrums, of course

 

[damo]

it would be played with uncontested scrums, of course

Naturally.

I guess I would modify my earlier answer to say that if there are implications for the way the game is played (number of players allowed/man off etc) then of course the referee needs to know them. What I was saying is that in situations where the impact relates solely to points awarded for the competition then the ref just shouldn't get involved, except to file a report.

The other example might be if one team claims the other team has an ineligible player for some reason that you can't adjudicate. Just don't get involved, but file a report indicating the team's concerns.

 

[Dickie E]

Well it is true.

http://www.boprugby.co.nz/downloads/2017-NZ-R-DSLVs-and-Smallblacks.pdf

See page 7 (law 3).

I've never had an issue with this TBH. It would take a pretty callous coach to risk his players safety by telling the ref they could play front row when they couldn't.

I didn't mean to suggest that you weren't telling the truth.

It just seems that a forfeit is a hefty price to pay for being unable to provide 3 STE front rowers.

 

[Taff]

Spot on answers. You need to know what happens regarding the avaiability of subs. Anything else pass the report over.

Exactly.

If a team turn up with no "trained and experienced" FR players, then usually they won't be allowed any Subs.

If a team turn up with 5 "trained and experienced" FR players, then usually they will be allowed 22 players in their team (15 starting and up to 5 Subs).

 

[damo]

I didn't mean to suggest that you weren't telling the truth.

It just seems that a forfeit is a hefty price to pay for being unable to provide 3 STE front rowers.

Sure, I know that.

I dunno about your second bit though. If a team doesn't have the minimum required players then they shouldn't be able to play for competition points. I believe the change was made in 2016 or 2017 or so. I think the more controversial part was saying that if a team has less than 15 they automatically default. While a front row is essential to a game, I don't agree that being a fullback or a flanker down should cost the game.

I must admit, though I actually cannot recall a time when I've turned up and there has been 15 players but not 3 STE's. I think our unions are pretty good at running front row factories every year.

 

[crossref]

Exactly.

If a team turn up with no "trained and experienced" FR players, then usually they won't be allowed any Subs.

If a team turn up with 5 "trained and experienced" FR players, then usually they will be allowed 22 players in their team (15 starting and up to 5 Subs).

Where I ref, none of the competitions work that way!.
It just goes to show what a needlessly complicated mess has been made of something that could easily be standardised

 

[Taff]

Where I ref, none of the competitions work that way! It just goes to show what a needlessly complicated mess has been made of something that could easily be standardised

I'm inclined to agree. It just seems confusing to have a global lawbook and then let unions or competitions change that lawbook.

 

[OB..]

Red would reasonably expect the ref to know & enforce any competition rules.

Referees may cover many different competitions, whereas the teams may only have a couple. I think it is the team's responsibility to have a copy of the relevant regulations available. Clubs in our District leagues (2nd and lower XVs) have a laminated poster with the main points, and the full regulations are on-line

 

[crossref]

Some teams play in shared multi sport municipal facikities and can't put up poster etc.

Alao, as an example , The main competitiin near me is the Middlesex Merit Table. They haven't put their 2018 / 19 regs on n line yet.
So no one can really be blamed for not being sure what the regs are

All the local competition regularly tinker with these parts of the regs from season to season, you can't assume last year's regs still apply