Leagues, upsets, home advantage, and levels

[Rushforth]

It always amazes me how many tiers of rugby union leagues there are in England. In the Netherlands there are just five levels for men, a Premier division, a first, two second divisions split N/S (now of 12 sides each, formerly 10), four third divisions, and with the size increase higher up, now five rather than six fourth divisions, for a total of 13 divisions and fewer than 140 sides playing regular competition rugby. The situation for Ladies is unsurprisingly even worse, with just 3 levels and fewer than 30 sides competing.

My question is to what degree leagues are genuinely competitive throughout the world. I define "upset" as teams which beat an opponent who at end of season is ranked significantly higher in the league, which is obviously quite possibly not an upset at all when teams play both home and away (as per football "pools" results).

In the Netherlands, from the lower half of the premier division to the entire second division, the players are generally young and fit with sometimes a wiser head, and anything can happen on the day between say the 3rd and 8th placed teams (of 12) at final analysis. But below that, out of 10, it is a surprise when sides beat others only 2 above them.

As to levels, it would be interesting to know how levels compare between countries, or even within them, where merit leagues may have significantly stronger 2nd XVs than the First from another nearish club.

Just interested

 

[OB..]

In our local cup competition, we have

Senior Cup: 5 * 1st XV, 1 * 2nd XV
Junior Cup: 3 * 1st XV, 4 * 2nd XV, 1 * 3rd XV
Minor Cup: 2 * 1st XV, 3 * 2nd XV, 1 * 3rd XV

In the Gloucestershire Reserve Leagues, Cinderford 4th plays a league higher than Dowty 1st (and only).

Some counties (Somerset, Dorset & Wilt) include lower teams with 1st XVs in all their leagues.

 

[FlipFlop]

The more teams you have, and therefore the more leagues, the sides have a way of find their own level. So I would speculate in England, most leagues are fairly evenly balanced.

When you only have a few leagues and teams, there are fewer places for the good (and bad) teams to go, so teams that would normally be in different leagues, end up in the same league.

 

[TigerCraig]

In Sydney the top level, Premiership, is relatively competitive between most clubs and anyone can beat anyone on their day, except for one club, Penrith, who really shouldnt be there but are a development decision in order to have a team representing the western suburbs.

Premiership clubs have 4 Senior grades and 3 grades of colts so there are generally enough good players at each club to put out a competitive 1st & 2nd XV. In 3rds and 4ths and Colts though you often get very large lopsided scores as clubs with lots of depth (Sydney University, Eastwood etc. dominate).

At the Suburban level, the next tier down, we have 5 divisions which are generally pretty evenly balanced. The Didision 1 competition clubs field 4 Senor teams and 1 Colts team, down to the Division 5 clubs which only field 1 Senior team. We dont have automatic promotioon and relegation though, so sometimes clubs can become dominant and you can have blowouts. In order to be promoted from say Division 5 to Division 4 you need to find another XV and have improved playing and club facilities so many clubs don't bother. My club for instance could win every game in our division by 100 points (wishful thinking) and will never go up.

 

[Camquin]

England used to have a national cup competition that featured teams from the top divisions.

After professionalism you can count on the fingers of one hand the numbers of times a level 2 side (semi-pro to pro) beat a level 1 side (fully pro). Admittedly towards the end the joined in the round of 16 so there were not that many matches.

You might need both hands to count the number of time a level 3 side (semi-pro) beat a level 2 side, and may need to take off you socks to count all the upsets.

There is promotion and relegation at all levels.

Some high flying clubs have run out of money and sunk many levels or even disbanded.
On the other hand some clubs have found funding and climbed from the weeds up to the National Leagues - in the case of Exeter all the way from the Devon leagues to the Premiership.

 

[TigerCraig]

As to levels, it would be interesting to know how levels compare between countries, or even within them, where merit leagues may have significantly stronger 2nd XVs than the First from another nearish club.

On this, in Sydney Premiership there is little doubt that some one like Sydney University or Eastwood's 3rd or 4th Grade team would probably beat Penrith or Parramatta's 1st grade team 9 times out of 10

(Last season Penrith won a total of 1 game across all 4 senior grades - out of 72 games)

 

[Rich_NL]

In the Netherlands, from the lower half of the premier division to the entire second division, the players are generally young and fit with sometimes a wiser head, and anything can happen on the day between say the 3rd and 8th placed teams (of 12) at final analysis. But below that, out of 10, it is a surprise when sides beat others only 2 above them.

Really? As a sometime player in the Dutch 3e, my impression is that it's *less* predictable in the lower leagues - a lot of teams (especially 2nd or 3rd XVs) can just about field 15 players one week, and then turn up with 23 men, a couple of first-team players and a high-level playing coach the next. The last team in the row has to deal with the players who feel like playing, which isn't an issue for a first XV.

 

[crossref]

Many of the games I ref involve 2nd and 3rd XVs.

there can sometimes be 'unusual' league results on days where the teams above, ie 1st XV / 2nd XV are not playing, which can strengthen the teams below...

it can be especially noticeable in Cup games... If the 1st XV have been knocked out of their cup, and have no game, meanwhile the 2nd XV are playing in the semi-final against strong opposition ... well the temptation is clear.

The converse also happens -- as the season wears on, and injuries mount up, players get promoted and the teams at the bottom, the 3rd and 4th XV can be seriously wanting in numbers and talent, and can lose games by a long way against teams they beat in the first half of the season.


(NB for those in other countries recall that in England a club's 1st 2nd & 3rd XV will have completely independent fixture lists)

 

[OB..]

Many of the games I ref involve 2nd and 3rd XVs.

there can sometimes be 'unusual' league results on days where the teams above, ie 1st XV / 2nd XV are not playing, which can strengthen the teams below...

it can be especially noticeable in Cup games... If the 1st XV have been knocked out of their cup, and have no game, meanwhile the 2nd XV are playing in the semi-final against strong opposition ... well the temptation is clear.

The converse also happens -- as the season wears on, and injuries mount up, players get promoted and the teams at the bottom, the 3rd and 4th XV can be seriously wanting in numbers and talent, and can lose games by a long way against teams they beat in the first half of the season.


(NB for those in other countries recall that in England a club's 1st 2nd & 3rd XV will have completely independent fixture lists)

For our local cups we have tried various ideas to combat this problem. Currently we use exclusion lists ie if a club enters three teams, we require a list of 15 1st XV players who will not be allowed to play down and a similar list of 2nd XV players.

 

[Paule23]

This problem is exacerbated in the leagues I referee by players being dual registered, I.e. The play for more than one club, so if their usual, stronger club is not playing, they move to their secondary, usually weaker club, thereby strengthening that team. If you look at the results in these leagues, there are real variations with a team thumping a particular opposition one week. Then getting thumped themselves h the same opposition a little later.