Line Out numbers

[crossref]

Most of the 2018 Law changes are subtle, or concern rare incidents, and won't make much day-to-day impact. But this one (which OB.. noticed) I think will have some impact on how we manage the game

2017 Laws

[LAWS]2017/19.8(e) If the team throwing in the ball put fewer than the usual number of players in the lineout , their opponents must be given a reasonable time to move enough players out of the lineout to satisfy this Law.
Sanction: Free Kick on the 15-metre line [/LAWS]

in the 2018 Law Book that is deleted and replaced by

[LAWS]2018/18.14 Unless the throw is taken as soon as the lineout is formed, the non-throwing team may not have more players (but may have fewer players) in the lineout than the throwing team. Sanction: Free-kick.
[/LAWS]

That's quite a big change !

Lineout numbers come up very frequently, and like most refs (I think) I manage it, using a combination of and "Blue, you need to be alert and match numbers promptly, i'll make sure you have enough time" and "Red, you have to give them time to match numbers"

Managing Lineout numbers is something that has been discussed fairly often on Rugby Refs, and lots of people stress the importance of1 9.8(e)

I can see the logic in this change -- it brings the lineout into line with 22m drop outs, or PK where the opponents are supposed to be in position, but we don't wait for them - if the kick is taken quickly they are not penalised.

Maybe it's good change ...

... but it will certainly have an impact on how lineouts are managed going forward.

"No numbers!"

 

[Dickie E]

it is bringinging law in line with practice. I never liked the "no numbers" stuff but I guess now I'll have to lump it.

 

[crossref]

Well like so many of these , it brings the Law into line with how some people do it, and away from home other people do it

I never (or almost never) said no numbers . But as you say , I will now

 

[Phil E]

Most of the 2018 Law changes.........

There are no law changes.

 

[crossref]

Yeah, I am not even sure what you mean by that any more

 

[Phil E]

Yeah, I am not even sure what you mean by that any more

It means what it says on the tin.

:deadhorse:

 

[Dickie E]

There are no law changes.

let's test this.

It's Blue's lineout throw. Red put 7 in because Blue are in a little huddle 5 metres from LoT. Blue huddle breaks up, they put 5 in lineout and hooker immediately throws in ball.

What is referee's decision?

a) play on with a call of "no numbers"
b) ping Blue for not giving Red time to match numbers
c) ping Red for too many players in lineout

 

[crossref]

Last season
- first time it happens I delay the throw and tell blue they need to give red time
- if they keep on doing it (which never happens ) I ping blue for not giving them time

Next season
- No numbers !

 

[ChrisR]

let's test this.

It's Blue's lineout throw. Red put 7 in because Blue are in a little huddle 5 metres from LoT. Blue huddle breaks up, they put 5 in lineout and hooker immediately throws in ball.

What is referee's decision?

a) play on with a call of "no numbers"
b) ping Blue for not giving Red time to match numbers
c) ping Red for too many players in lineout

It's "Play on!", with or without the shout of "No numbers".

Examine the law:

[LAWS]2018/18.14 Unless the throw is taken as soon as the lineout is formed, the non-throwing team may not have more players (but may have fewer players) in the lineout than the throwing team.
Sanction: Free-kick.
[/LAWS]

This is the critical part. If the throw is taken quickly the throwing team accept any imbalance in numbers.

If the throw is delayed the non-throwing side has the responsibility of counting and reducing numbers. If they don't then advantage is to be played. Most of the time the throwers will take the ball but the real advantage of having numbers up in the lineout is defending post-throw. That is, having extra players at the back to attack the thrower's 10 & 12.

In Dickie's scenario there is an another issue if the huddle is close to the mark of touch (it'll take me a while to get used to that term):

[LAWS]2017 19.8(d) When the ball is in touch , every player who approaches the line of touch is presumed to do so to form a lineout. Players who approach the line of touch must do so without delay. Players of either team must not leave the lineout once they have taken up a position in the lineout until the lineout has ended.
Sanction: Free Kick on the 15-metre line
[/LAWS]

[LAWS]2018 18.12. Teams form the lineout without delay. Sanction: Free-kick.[/LAWS]

The part in red is missing from 2018 Laws. Under 2017 law a team approaching the line, huddling then having players retire could be FK'd. Has this disappeared in 2018 or would that be considered 'delay'?

 

[Dickie E]

It's "Play on!", with or without the shout of "No numbers".

That can't be. The law (which is allegedly unchanged) says:

[LAWS]19.8(e) If the team throwing in the ball put fewer than the usual number of players in the lineout , their opponents must be given a reasonable time to move enough players out of the lineout to satisfy this Law.
Sanction: Free Kick on the 15-metre line [/LAWS]

so how can it be play on??? Blue haven't met this requirement.

 

[ChrisR]

But the Law did change. Re-read my post #9 and apply 2018 Law 18.4.

[LAWS]2018 14. Unless the throw is taken as soon as the lineout is formed, the non-throwing team may not have more players (but may have fewer players) in the lineout than the throwing team.
Sanction: Free-kick.
[/LAWS]

In the scenario the throw was immediate so the throwers accept the imbalance.

 

[Christy]

let's test this.

It's Blue's lineout throw. Red put 7 in because Blue are in a little huddle 5 metres from LoT. Blue huddle breaks up, they put 5 in lineout and hooker immediately throws in ball.

What is referee's decision?

a) play on with a call of "no numbers"
b) ping Blue for not giving Red time to match numbers
c) ping Red for too many players in lineout

for me play on

 

[crossref]

The more I think about it, the more fundamental the change is
The 2017 Laws are designed to bring about a specific outcome : matching numbers.
With the aid of the laws, all lineouts in my games do have matching numbers

The 2018 Laws are designed for a different outcome : fast line outs, just get on with it.

I am not saying it's better or worse , I can see both sides ... But it's definitely a change

 

[Blackberry]

My bad, but what does a call of "no numbers" mean? Its new to me.

 

[crossref]

My bad, but what does a call of "no numbers" mean? Its new to me.

It means "you took it so quickly I am not going to penalise the other side for having too many numbers "

 

[ChrisR]

I think the 2018 laws removes a couple of 'gotchas'.

The throwing side can have a huddle 5m from the LoT and then have players retreat without penalty so long as the retreating players haven't actually joined the lineout. So, no 'gotcha' from the ref.

If the throwing pull the above, put reduced numbers in and then throw quickly they can't 'gotcha' their opponent on numbers.

And, as crossref surmised, since they don't have to wait for the ops to retreat they can chuck it in quicker so speeding up lineouts.

has anyone noticed any change in the real world? Probably not.

 

[Balones]

I’m with Blackberry. Never ever heard a ‘no numbers’ call.

 

[crossref]

I think that 19.8(e) was actually used quite often

 

[crossref]

I’m with Blackberry. Never ever heard a ‘no numbers’ call.

It's wierd isn't it ? It must be a regional thing, as I have heard it often enough to be used to it (I don't use it myself ) but you are an observer so must watch 100x as many minutes of rugby as I do, given I am reffing each week

 

[chbg]

I think that 19.8(e) was actually used quite often

I never used it, or been told to use it, in your sense - delay the throw until numbers match.

I have used it, particularly this week with a Group MO (working way below his normal level) not criticising me, as a way of determining that the throwing team have accepted the imbalance in numbers as they went too quickly to allow the opposition to reset. As stated in my PMB (because I accept that not all referees work like this).