[Tackle] M. Machenaud RC - Top14 Final

[talbazar]

Dear Fellow Referees,

What do you make of this one?

I know the precept of: "you bring him up, you're responsible for him"
And I agree with it.

But, I have two questions here:
1. Does anyone (else) believe that it really looks like Giteau is "diving" to make sure he falls on the head?
2. If you believe so (as a referee of the game), what can you do about it?

Cheers,
Pierre.

 

[4eyesbetter]

Are you saying that he was trying to make it appear as though he fell on his head, or he was deliberately managing his fall so he fell head-first? If the latter, and he is taking a conscious decision to run the risk of life paralysis to get an opponent sent off, there's not really a lot you can do about that...

 

[didds]

Rule number one - dont turn the player through the horizontal and allow the possibility to occur?

didds

 

[OB..]

Rule number one - dont turn the player through the horizontal and allow the possibility to occur?

didds

Actually there is rule zero: DON'T LIFT.

I think Giteau was just trying to curlup, but because Machenaud was still holding onto him, the weight caused Giteau to drop fast. He did manage to get an arm to the ground first, fortuately.

 

[SimonSmith]

This same debate in happening on the USA Referees Facebook page.

I don't think he's doing it to get the red card for anyone. Question #2 is therefore redundant.

 

[L'irlandais]

I agree the tackled player has not "milked" a red card. (Are you a Paris supporter Pierre?). If anything he is simply trying to break his fall. I see the tackler going in low then "chair-planing" thru 180, feet off the ground. When he finds his feet again he stands up in the tackle, this seems to be what causes the ball carrier to dip passed the horizontal.

It is a freak occurrence, don't think I ever seen a tackler do that. But he is responsible for his actions.

 

[Ian_Cook]

RC is the correct decision.

More concerning from a refereeing perspective is that the TMO needed to see the replay 13 times from five different angles (yep, I counted them)

Perhaps someone needs to explain to him what "Clear and Obvious" means!

 

[talbazar]

Actually there is rule zero: DON'T LIFT.

That's my point about responsibility if you lift. Because today, there is no law about not lifting. And that's a totally different thread :biggrin:

I agree the tackled player has not "milked" a red card.

I actually agree with you on the not milking. It seems to me that M.M. was keeping M.G. Up and towards the Racing's line to either create a maul or try to still the ball.
Then M.G. Dived to the ground and towards his own line (in an attempt to keep ball possession) and as such created the unbalanced situation leading to fall on the head.
Freak accident to me.

Are you a Paris supporter Pierre?

Not at all. Not a Toulon fan either.
The "(else)" in my OP refers to Swarzeski (Racing captain). That's what he tells Raynal (the ref).

RC is the correct decision.

I've got no problem with that decision.
Some though would say that there was no drive nor drop...

More concerning from a refereeing perspective is that the TMO needed to see the replay 13 times from five different angles (yep, I counted them)
Perhaps someone needs to explain to him what "Clear and Obvious" means!

The refs tells his TMO that he can't see the replay in the stadium. So I don't know what is the TMO seeing but the ref can't see it and he keeps asking to see the incident on the big screen.
That wasn't played in a rugby stadium, so maybe the TMO system was set up as they were used to.


The reason for my post is that this stirred a fair amount of comment in the people who watched the game. And if the idea (which doesn't need to be true) of M.G. Milking a red card spreads, we are at risk of seeing a 16 yo trying that on the weekend and get a really serious injury...
That's my main concern!

Thanks a lot for your comments though!
Cheers,
Pierre.

 

[Drift]

This same debate in happening on the USA Referees Facebook page.

I don't think he's doing it to get the red card for anyone. Question #2 is therefore redundant.

I went there once and actually was reading home sometimes these kind of tackles should be play on as the tackled player tries to "dive" to the ground. How those people got to that conclusion I have no idea.

This tackle is a red card every single day of the week.

 

[SimonSmith]

I went there once and actually was reading home sometimes these kind of tackles should be play on as the tackled player tries to "dive" to the ground. How those people got to that conclusion I have no idea.

This tackle is a red card every single day of the week.

That page is a one of Dante's rings. When I go there I feel simultaneously depressed, but also better about myself

 

[OB..]

I don't think Machenaud himself was in balance when he lifted, so there was no chance of holding Giteau up safely. Note that he falls forward over Giteau. This, of course makes matters worse, being in effect driving down.

 

[Drift]

That page is a one of Dante's rings. When I go there I feel simultaneously depressed, but also better about myself

Yep. Some of the people there seem more worried about finding the "gotcha" penalty to show they know every single one of the small laws, instead of trying to just get a game to flow. Materieality isn't something that is, seemingly, thought about in there. I have sometimes had to just close down the computer and go grab a coffee after reading that page.

 

[Dickie E]

As others have said Giteau instintively curled to protect face & throat. The tackle is clearly a RC offence.

There was a similar incident a few years ago where an Australian rugby league player curled his head just prior to impact (see link below). He's now paralysed. I feel sick every time I see it.

Storm (to their discredit) suggested that the tackled player was complict in the injury.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2v2zPABBtF8&spfreload=10

 

[Dickie E]

Some though would say that there was no drive nor drop...

I think that would be a hard case to make.

 

[Ian_Cook]

As others have said Giteau instintively curled to protect face & throat. That is a clearly a RC offence.

Dickie, I'm sure you didn't mean this read like it does

There was a similar incident a few years ago where an Australian rugby league player curled his head just prior to impact (see link below). He's now paralysed. I feel sick every time I see it.

Storm (to their discredit) suggested that the tackled player was complict in the injury.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2v2zPABBtF8&spfreload=10

There is only one good thing that came out of the Alex McKinnon injury, and that is RL changing its gung-ho attitude to dangerous tip tackles. Prior to it, they looked on RU as being a bunch of soft-cocks for RC players who tip opponents and drop them head first, even when there was no injury. Even after AM was injured, there were still some influential former players and coaches who claimed it was just a freak accident.

I like Cameron Smith, but he did himself and his team no favours with his ill-considered comments at the time.

 

[Dickie E]

Dickie, I'm sure you didn't mean this read like it does

Indeed. Now fixed. Thanks for identifying.

 

[Phil E]

Yep. Some of the people there seem more worried about finding the "gotcha" penalty to show they know every single one of the small laws, instead of trying to just get a game to flow. Materieality isn't something that is, seemingly, thought about in there. I have sometimes had to just close down the computer and go grab a coffee after reading that page.

I once had a chat with the late Allan Biggs after he had been to America on a referee coaching session. I asked him what the standard of American Referees was and how they viewed the game.

His comment was that "They are good technical referees and know every single law.....and are determined to use every single one of them."

Present company excepted of course :wink:

 

[SimonSmith]

He's not far wrong. Being a CMO over here is an...interesting experience.