Materiality - is it dead or just dying?

[thepercy]

The argument against is that but for R6#'s positioning, the G9 might have gone to his side.

Ideally I would like a clear cut case that would be readily understood by an ordinary punter. THe offside law itself tends to deal with the matter, so does not really help.

One example I often encounter is at the tackle. Tackler is stuck on the wrong side, not releasing/not rolling away. If the ball carriers SH gets the ball quickly and gets it out, then no advantage, no PK. If the tackler slows down the ball getting out, or there is a counter ruck from his side, then the not rolling becomes material.

 

[Crucial]

I'm curious as to how much interaction outside of match time referees organisations spend with players and coaches to better understand what actions are material and what aren't.
With the blindside winger offside example a halfback would likely tell you that if there were any plans to go that way he would have been letting you know in no uncertain terms that his selected option had been blocked. Coaches could tell you that they run 2 phase attacks looking to create space on the outside and your judgement on the first phase that the wing 40m away being offside was immaterial actually ruined a creative plan.
I just feel that if judgement of materiality is key then that judgement should be made from a position of knowledge. Many referees have never played the game to the levels where planning goes much beyond what is in front of you or played at all. I'm not deriding them for that, just saying that their opinion of materiality may be lacking.

One more example.
19.8(j) was amended with the bolded part of the non throwing team's player within the 5m from touch having to stand 2m back from line of touch.
This was conveyed to coaches so they could train their teams accordingly. I was coaching a school team at the time. I looked at not only how that would affect our set up and defence but how it may offer attacking opportunities. At this level is was quite easy to identify that the non throwing hooker was usually day dreaming when he had nothing to do and putting him 2 metres back offered a great chance to gain ground behind the forward pack and get an attack going. We practised lineout moves to do just that.
At gametime though we never had a chance to try them because no ref was enforcing the Law and the non throwing hooker was standing flat. If I questioned them about it after the game I was told it was immaterial. It wasn't for our team.

 

[Dickie E]

Can somebody come up with a really solid example of materiality?

Red has clearly won the ruck but ball is stuck. Red ruck participant eases ball backwards with his hand.

At a kick off, chaser comes out of the stalls early, realises his mistake, and retreats.

Prop loses his bind in the scrum, pushes off ground and rebinds with no impact on scrum.

 

[ddjamo]

the main point that I see missing in the discussion is that if we see an infringement and due to materiality we don't ping it...the infringement still needs to be communicated. if you don't say anything to the offender you will be counteracting your ability to get them to buy into your standard. if you let them know that you saw the infringement and it wasn't material, but to be careful, etc...THAT is were materiality becomes one hell of a tool.

I apologize if that was mentioned...I didn't read the thread word for word.

 

[Ian_Cook]

Imagine how high RMcCaws YC record would be IF he didnt get his 'captains discretionary allowance' ??? , up near the 599 YC mark in his 300 matches would be a good guess! :eng::usa::ireland::wales::arg::scot::rsa::france::aus::chair:

Reverted to type I see. I wondered how long you could go without trolling....

Can somebody come up with a really solid example of materiality?

► Line-out participant of the non-throwing team closes the gap early/jumps early but the ball goes past him to the intended catcher who plays the ball of the top and the throwing team clear out onto the backs.

► SH of the non-throwing team oversteps the offside line with both feet, but then retires onside immediately, and the ball is cleared to the backs.

 

[Rushforth]

Reverted to type I see. I wondered how long you could go without trolling....

He over-exaggerated. It was somewhat funny.

All 7s cheat, sorry if you didn't get the memo that RMcC is not a saint either.

 

[Browner]

He over-exaggerated. It was somewhat funny.

Of course I did, & i hoped so, and it was deliberately so, you'd expect only the over sensitive kiwis to be arsed to react, those that can see past their self important attacking of me will easily recognise the tongue in cheek banter and give it no extra air time. .... although the thrust remains the same McCaw does escape sanctions that other players would get in similar circumstances merely because of his captaincy status, which is one of the reasons why forwards (especially back rowers) get appointed as international captains often.

I still wish RM had been English ( or moved here for a holiday once!) Best ever IMO.

 

[Dixpat]

Of course I did, & i hoped so, and it was deliberately so, you'd expect only the over sensitive kiwis to be arsed to react, those that can see past their self important attacking of me will easily recognise the tongue in cheek banter

I guess Browner it is because of your incessant put down, humorous or not, of RMc that causes us "over sensitive kiwis" to react

 

[Dixpat]

It was somewhat funny.

If not tiresome

All 7s cheat, ..

Reread post #26 in this thread where Marauder & Ian_Cook dispel that comment

 

[Ian_Cook]

These guys look familiar.....

 

[Browner]

I guess Browner it is because of your incessant put down, humorous or not, of RMc that causes us "over sensitive kiwis" to react

Capt of NZ is jibbed at ....whoopee do "hold the front page" ...... Like it hasnt happened the other way round for Johnson or Carling etc.previously, take a chill pill matey , crikey its jealous flattery , sorry if you can't see that.

 

[Browner]

These guys look familiar.....

Ha ha ha , nice one .......Ok, if thats the new tone, then ....

As does this chap

. epper:

 

[Dixpat]

Johnson or Carling....

Care to show chapter and verse

 

[Ian_Cook]

Capt of NZ is jibbed at ....whoopee do "hold the front page" ...... Like it hasnt happened the other way round for Johnson or Carling etc.previously, take a chill pill matey , crikey its jealous flattery , sorry if you can't see that.

Its not the jibing Browner, its the incessant and relentless trolling and wind ups, You might think its very funny, but only your mate Tweedle Dee agrees. Your constant scab-picking, poking and prodding for reactions have become boring. You're like that ruddy faced, jolly fat man at the after match who makes all sorts of inappropriate comments and then claims to be "only joking" when someone challenges you for it.

Your attempts at "humour" are like a geometric progression; make a jibe once, you're a wit, make it again, you're a half-wit. I have lost track of the number of threads YOU have derailed because you think its OK to have yet another jab at Kiwis.

 

[Simon Thomas]

Moderator comment : enough guys. Please Take it offline if you want to get personal.
Too many Forum users are complaining that they are fed up with the jibes and trolling, so let's stick to rugby.

 

[Pegleg]

the main point that I see missing in the discussion is that if we see an infringement and due to materiality we don't ping it...the infringement still needs to be communicated. if you don't say anything to the offender you will be counteracting your ability to get them to buy into your standard. if you let them know that you saw the infringement and it wasn't material, but to be careful, etc...THAT is were materiality becomes one hell of a tool.

I apologize if that was mentioned...I didn't read the thread word for word.

Indeed. Applying Material Effect does not mean ignoring. It does not mean giving carte blanche to the offenders to carry on all game. It is part of the ATP protocol.

EG:

Blue OS flanker slightly early off the scrum. Red 9 gets the ball is away cleanly to his 10 (on the side of the scrum the flanker broke early) Flanker gets no where near the play or ball. Play on no ME. Next scrum: "Blue 7 a little early off the last one time it better please.

If the flanker responds positively a quick: "Thanks 7 that's fine". If he goes a little early again PING!! "You were warned 7".

It's a judgement call as to whether there was any ME. Just as with advantage and other call we make such calls many times during a game.

I do feel a lot of elite refs (and possibly grassroots ones too) use ME as a tool to keep the penalty count down. That is poor management of the game.

Obviously, if the temper of the game is "charged" management may mean short advantage and no ME ping early and keep a lid on things.

 

[Lee Lifeson-Peart]

These guys look familiar.....

It's Owen and Ben Franks playing for Auckland!

 

[SimonSmith]

I second what my namesake Mr Thomas says.

People try to rile other people up.
People get riled.
Then the riler sits back and basks in the "don't be oversensitive" glow of self righteousness.

You want to take pings at players - that's fine. The minute you passively aggressively go after other users, you're heading down a bad path. Please, cease and desist and get back on thread.

 

[ddjamo]

Indeed. Applying Material Effect does not mean ignoring. It does not mean giving carte blanche to the offenders to carry on all game. It is part of the ATP protocol.

EG:

Blue OS flanker slightly early off the scrum. Red 9 gets the ball is away cleanly to his 10 (on the side of the scrum the flanker broke early) Flanker gets no where near the play or ball. Play on no ME. Next scrum: "Blue 7 a little early off the last one time it better please.

If the flanker responds positively a quick: "Thanks 7 that's fine". If he goes a little early again PING!! "You were warned 7".

It's a judgement call as to whether there was any ME. Just as with advantage and other call we make such calls many times during a game.

I do feel a lot of elite refs (and possibly grassroots ones too) use ME as a tool to keep the penalty count down. That is poor management of the game.

Obviously, if the temper of the game is "charged" management may mean short advantage and no ME ping early and keep a lid on things.

please, continue. "poor management" for a low penalty match where the players are complying....please explain.

 

[Browner]

I second what my namesake Mr Thomas says.

People try to rile other people up.
People get riled.
Then the riler sits back and basks in the "don't be oversensitive" glow of self righteousness.

You want to take pings at players - that's fine. The minute you passively aggressively go after other users, you're heading down a bad path. Please, cease and desist and get back on thread.

Simon & Simon ,

Please re-read through this thread.
Post #25 suggested 'skill' was the only factor in YC avoidance PLAYER
Post # 30 suggested 'captaincy status' might be another. PLAYER
Post # 32 appeared to misunderstand the suggestion made in #30, so PLAYER
Post # 35 'exagerated ' the suggestion to emphasise the point made in #30 PLAYER
Post # 45 then switched & made it PERSONAL by name calling , unnecessarily ......and got a personal retaliation. ( no action= no reaction)

Then a derogatory PERSONAL picture was posted .....

It's a pattern often repeated. Please demand that the poster to desist in the PERSONAL nature of his attacks at ME.

My ORIGINAL rugby OPINION , is that "captains get less YC than they might otherwise deserve, because of their status, those that have been captaining longest will have profited mostest , probably.