Maul Question

[kaypeegee]

Ball carrier plus team mate and defender all bound together on feet contest ball.

Ball carrier goes to ground (say on one knee). Defender and ball carrier continue to contest ball.

17.2(d) Keeping players on their feet. Players in a maul must endeavour to stay on their feet. The ball carrier in a maul may go to ground providing the ball is available immediately and play continues.
Sanction PK.

17.6(g) If the ball carrier in a maul goes to ground, including being on one or both knees or sitting, the referee orders a scrum unless the ball is immediately available.

Does the PK sanction in 17.2(d) apply to the ball carrier?

 

[OB..]

Does the PK sanction in 17.2(d) apply to the ball carrier?

No. He is an exception to the general rule.

 

[kaypeegee]

No. He is an exception to the general rule.

Thanks

p52 in "Player's interpretation of the IRB's interpretation!" confused me.

 

[stuart3826]

Disagree - if he goes to ground and the ball is not immediately available, then PK the ball carrier

 

[barker14610]

I agree with Stuart. If the ball carrier has one knee on the ground he is off his feet and can't wrestle for the ball any longer.

 

[Stoo48]

Agree with Stuart and Barker, 1 knee = 2 knees = leaning over and supporting yourself on your hands while dragging ball back = off your feet = PK

 

[Phil E]

Disagree - if he goes to ground and the ball is not immediately available, then PK the ball carrier

In a Maul???

I would prefer a scrum turnover.

 

[crossref]

I tend to think that
- if he is going to ground in a clear bonafide attempt to make the ball available ... but fails - scrum turnover
- if he is dropping to knee as part of his general wrestling technique, or is forced unintentionally off his feet, but does not then release - PK

it is difficult to tell the difference sometimes, but I suppose that's what the ref is there for.

 

[niall murphy]

I would think ball unplayable and go with turnover scrum.

 

[stuart3826]

I have to say I tend to go with the sanction in law - in this case PK

 

[OB..]

Disagree - if he goes to ground and the ball is not immediately available, then PK the ball carrier

You are not actually disagreeing. Law 17.2 (d) says the ball carrier is allowed to go to ground, whereas other players are not.

However once he has gone to ground, he then has to make the ball available. If he deliberately does not, PK. If he cannot, then it is a maul turnover.

Curiously, Law 17 does not actually specify the PK for the ball-carrier on the ground refusing to release, but Law 10.4 (m) will do nicely.

 

[Davet]

Ball carrier goes to ground and hangs onto ball PK against him. 17.2.d

Ball carrier goes to ground, releases ball, but ball is tangled up and not available immediately - scrum. 17.6.g

 

[stuart3826]

Ball carrier goes to ground and hangs onto ball PK against him. 17.2.d

Ball carrier goes to ground, releases ball, but ball is tangled up and not available immediately - scrum. 17.6.g

I read those 2 clauses as being in conflict with one another

 

[Phil E]

I read those 2 clauses as being in conflict with one another

Why?

When the ball becomes unplayable in a ruck what do you give?

When the ball is held in a ruck what do you give?

Same difference.

 

[kaypeegee]

Ball carrier goes to ground and hangs onto ball PK against him. 17.2.d

So, if ball carrier goes to ground in a maul with defender contsting the ball, defender can continue to contest the ball and ball carrier must release or PK against ball carrier?

But in a similar situation at a tackle, if ball carrier goes to ground with defender contesting the ball, defender can not continue to contest the ball and must release the ball / ball carrier before re-engaging for the ball. Otherwise PK against defender?

Do I understand this correctly?