Messy tackle - maul at sametime

[breako]

Red player tackles blue. Blue tries to stay on his feet. Blue knees are on deck but he is being dragged by red players who are trying to rip the ball. Hard to explain.

Letter of law here is knee is on ground so tackle has been made, Tackler has to release.

But very quickly a few blue players join in so it is a mixture between a complete tackle and a maul.

Any tips here?

 

[Pegleg]

Call it.

It is difficult to say, from your description, whether he went to ground from the tackle or whether it was a maul that went to ground. If it was a tackle then the tackler (all of them) has to release. If it is a maul they do not have to.

So, you are the sole judge of fact. So call it as a tackle OR a maul ( you were there not me) and then referee it accordingly. It is then up to the players to play it as you call it. If the captains want clarification give it to them at the next breakdown.

 

[The Fat]

Red player tackles blue. Blue tries to stay on his feet. Blue knees are on deck but he is being dragged by red players who are trying to rip the ball. Hard to explain.

Letter of law here is knee is on ground so tackle has been made, Tackler has to release.

But very quickly a few blue players join in so it is a mixture between a complete tackle and a maul.

Any tips here?

Ball carrier held and knees are on the ground so we have a tackle.
Call, "Tackle. Red release", or similar.
If red comply and blue ball carrier gets to feet and carries on, ping him for not releasing the ball. If red don't comply, play advantage to blue and then ping if necessary.
You sometimes get this type of situation when near the touch line where defenders are trying to drag the ball carrier into touch but usually it is the ball carrier wanting to get to ground before he gets dragged across the line.
Obviously the problem that exists for the situation you describe is how quickly the blue team mates arrive for what now looks like a maul but I would say that if both knees were on the ground before they join in it is pretty well clear that we have a tackle without a tackler and all players must release. Red players releasing must then come back around and through the gate before going for the ball.

 

[OB..]

If it gets messy, blow the whistle and give a scrum. Nothing good is likely to come out of it.

 

[ChrisR]

Y'all got it wrong. Tho I won't argue against blowing it up and awarding a scrum. But who gets the feed?

Law 15.4(a) requires the tackler to release.

Law 15.5(b) requires the tackled player to release.

In this scenario we have a tackled player but no tackler. Player with knee on the ground must give up the ball to the player on his feet. PK against tackled player.

 

[The Fat]

Y'all got it wrong. Tho I won't argue against blowing it up and awarding a scrum. But who gets the feed?

Law 15.4(a) requires the tackler to release.

Law 15.5(b) requires the tackled player to release.

In this scenario we have a tackled player but no tackler. Player with knee on the ground must give up the ball to the player on his feet. PK against tackled player.

As I said in an earlier post, we have a tackle without a tackler. We agree on that but the first person to release must be the player/players who bring the ball carrier to ground. Then the ball carrier/tackled player must do one of 3 things, place/pass/push. If there is an opposition player on his feet and who gets his hands on the ball, the tackled player must release the ball but remember that if the player/players/non-tacklers (sometimes called the tackle-assist) must release and come around and through the gate before playing the ball if they are initially on the "wrong side".

15.6 Other Players

(c) Players in opposition to the ball carrier who remain on their feet who bring the ball carrier to ground so that the player is tackled must release the ball and the ball carrier. Those players may then play the ball providing they are on their feet and do so from behind the ball and from directly behind the tackled player or a tackler closest to those players’ goal line.

 

[ChrisR]

From the OP: "Blue knees are on deck but he is being dragged by red players who are trying to rip the ball."

The Fat, now you have me thinking that 15.6 applies to Red player(s). Had always thought of "Other Players" as players other than the tackler.

What about "red players who are trying to rip the ball"? In a simpler scenario where two opponents grasp the ball and one goes to ground why should the player on his feet have to release? That is how I read the OP.

 

[The Fat]

From the OP: "Blue knees are on deck but he is being dragged by red players who are trying to rip the ball."

The Fat, now you have me thinking that 15.6 applies to Red player(s). Had always thought of "Other Players" as players other than the tackler.

What about "red players who are trying to rip the ball"? In a simpler scenario where two opponents grasp the ball and one goes to ground why should the player on his feet have to release? That is how I read the OP.

As soon as we have a tackle, ALL opposition players holding the ball carrier/tackled player and/or ball must release to allow the tackled player to exercise one of his options. However, once those players release, if there is a player, on his feet and in the correct position as described in the last sentence of 15.6(c), the tackled player must release the ball immediately if that "other player" gets his mits on the ball.

 

[The Fat]

The Fat, now you have me thinking that 15.6 applies to Red player(s). Had always thought of "Other Players" as players other than the tackler.

"Other Players" are ALL players other the tackler but remember that a player who brings the ball carrier to ground (thus affecting a tackle) but who remains on his feet (i.e. doesn't go to ground) is not a tackler.

 

[Pegleg]

Y'all got it wrong. Tho I won't argue against blowing it up and awarding a scrum. But who gets the feed?

Law 15.4(a) requires the tackler to release.

Law 15.5(b) requires the tackled player to release.

In this scenario we have a tackled player but no tackler. Player with knee on the ground must give up the ball to the player on his feet. PK against tackled player.

NO!

A player who effects a tackle but who does not go to ground (ie in law not a "Tackler") must release All tacklers / tackle assists must release! The importance of a tackler going to ground is the that he doe not have to "come through the gate" where as a person who effects a tackle by stays on his feet,whilst he still must release the tackled player, he must come through the gate. This was covered in a law ruling some time ago.

 

[ChrisR]

Let's go back to the 1 v. 1 first where both players are grasping the ball. If one of them goes to ground such as getting a knee on the ground this is NOT a "tackle". In a tackle the player has to be held as he is on the ground and in this scenario the ball is held, not the player. So, no tackle and no requirement for the man on his feet to release.

However, what about the man off his feet? Does he have to release? I think so but not sure of what law reference if this is not a tackle.

Back to the OP. Let's pretend that we can determine who is doing what and one Blue and one Red are grasping the ball. When a second Red joins the dance and grasps the Blue player and Blue gets his knee on the deck then Bingo, we have a tackle.

Red #2 "not quite a tackler" has to release Blue but Blue has to give up the ball to the Red player who is only grasping the ball.

Justice is done, man on his feet gets the ball.

 

[The Fat]

Tackle made = everyone release

 

[Pegleg]

From the OP: "Blue knees are on deck but he is being dragged by red players who are trying to rip the ball."

The Fat, now you have me thinking that 15.6 applies to Red player(s). Had always thought of "Other Players" as players other than the tackler.

What about "red players who are trying to rip the ball"? In a simpler scenario where two opponents grasp the ball and one goes to ground why should the player on his feet have to release? That is how I read the OP.

Is it really? Your first post clearly refers to a Tackle situation. Here it is to help your memory.

Y'all got it wrong. Tho I won't argue against blowing it up and awarding a scrum. But who gets the feed?

Law 15.4(a) requires the tackler to release.

Law 15.5(b) requires the tackled player to release.

In this scenario we have a tackled player but no tackler. Player with knee on the ground must give up the ball to the player on his feet. PK against tackled player.

However, as I posted in my first post in the thread (post 2) it depends whether breako called it a tackle or a maul. IF a tackle then all must release, IF a maul then there is no requirement to release or roll away

 

[Pegleg]

Let's go back to the 1 v. 1 first where both players are grasping the ball. If one of them goes to ground such as getting a knee on the ground this is NOT a "tackle". In a tackle the player has to be held as he is on the ground and in this scenario the ball is held, not the player. So, no tackle and no requirement for the man on his feet to release.

However, what about the man off his feet? Does he have to release? I think so but not sure of what law reference if this is not a tackle.

Back to the OP. Let's pretend that we can determine who is doing what and one Blue and one Red are grasping the ball. When a second Red joins the dance and grasps the Blue player and Blue gets his knee on the deck then Bingo, we have a tackle.

Red #2 "not quite a tackler" has to release Blue but Blue has to give up the ball to the Red player who is only grasping the ball.

Justice is done, man on his feet gets the ball.

Law 14 tells us what a player of his feet when there is no tackle must do

 

[menace]

Let's go back to the 1 v. 1 first where both players are grasping the ball. If one of them goes to ground such as getting a knee on the ground this is NOT a "tackle". In a tackle the player has to be held as he is on the ground and in this scenario the ball is held, not the player. So, no tackle and no requirement for the man on his feet to release.

However, what about the man off his feet? Does he have to release? I think so but not sure of what law reference if this is not a tackle.

If I understand you correctly ....the answer is 'it depends'.

If in your 1 v 1 scenario, someone was the initial ball carrier...then we are in Law 15 territory so this is important then as to who then 'goes to ground' and the order in which it happens. (If no one was the ball carrier and they were simultaneously grasping for the ball then the ball must have been on the ground and we have Law 14 in play).

For eg, let's call them A v B, where A is the ball carrier. If B has a hold of the ball only, and A 'goes to his knees, and B stays on his feet, then A is technically tackled. B must release the ball (and effectively release player A). Law 15.6 (c) tells us so...

"Players in opposition to the ball carrier who remain on their feet who bring the ball carrier to ground so that the player is tackled must release the ball and the ball carrier. Those players may then play the ball providing they are on their feet and do so from behind the ball and from directly behind the tackled player or a tackler closest to those players’ goal line.
Sanction: Penalty kick"

Though, if B had gone to ground holding the ball carrier A, just by the ball (the football, not the left or right gonad), but A remains on his feet then I would let him continue to do so. I see that as B trying to affect the tackle and should be given a chance to do so. Equally A could break free and we can play on. (I know B is off his feet, but I don't think he has an obligation to give up the contest that he started while on his feet - I'd let it play out, as I know something else dynamic will soon happen to change the situation. There's no need to blow the whistle IMO).

 

[ChrisR]

From menace: "For eg, let's call them A v B, where A is the ball carrier. If B has a hold of the ball only, and A 'goes to his knees, and B stays on his feet, then A is technically tackled. B must release the ball (and effectively release player A). Law 15.6 (c) tells us so..."

Disagree with the part in bold. The ball is held. The BC is not held. No tackle. No release by B. What about A?

What you are saying is that if two players wrestle for the ball (who had it first is immaterial at this point) and one goes off his feet then the one off his feet gets the ball. Does that seem about right? I'm thinking that neither has to release until others join and it becomes a tackle or a maul.

However, I have come to agree on the more complex scenario (see OP) of multiple players grasping the BC/ball that when the BC's knee hits the ground then it's a tackle (as I said previously) and all have to release, including player with hands on ball, and the BC must make his play with the ball.

 

[menace]

Sorry that I can't convince you Maruader,

I personally can't see how an opposition player that grasps the ball, which is still being grasped by the initial ball carrier, can't also be grasping some part of the ball carriers hand, forearm, pinky or otherwise. That is they have effectively also held a piece of the ball carrier while holding the ball. To try an distinguish that he's got only the ball, and nothing but the ball, during a dynamic event is simply too difficult and is angels dancing on pin heads to try an figure out what is grasped and what is not. If it looks like a duck, then I'm calling it a duck. I personally think you're being too semantic with the words rather than the intent of the law, which is that ball carrier that is off their feet (tackled) are released and given an opportunity to use one of his options. It was part of the big 5 (clear release) to help attacking rugby.
The fact that you can't decide in law who should 'release' in your 'ball only' scenario means you've not convinced me to change the way I interpret the laws.

I'm going to make it simple for myself, and I'm calling A is tackled and B must release. I'm doing this because 15.6 c is quite clear in my mind. "Players in opposition to the ball carrier who remain on their feet who bring the ball carrier to ground so that the player is tackled must release the ball and the ball carrier. ".

But if I'm howled down by the other refs on here that I've got it wrong then I've been getting wrong as a ref for the last 5 years and I'll have to readjust.

 

[OB..]

Menace - well said. Marauder's argument muddies the waters with no concomitant benefit.

 

[Dixie]

But if I'm howled down by the other refs on here that I've got it wrong then I've been getting wrong as a ref for the last 5 years and I'll have to readjust.

No need to readjust. I'd only comment that there is one scenario in which Marauder's approach is reasonable: two players attempt to gather a loose ball, and seemingly both get hands on it at the same time. Then I think a scrum restart is appropriate, with the put-in to the team moving forward under 20.4(d).

 

[Pegleg]

Indeed two players wrestling for the ball is not a maul nor ruck. Unplayable side going forward rewarded for me.