New Zealand/Australia

[DarrenJones]

This article popped up on my news feed as an analysis on the scrums in the last nz aus game. Thoughts?
http://www.the42.ie/australia-new-zealand-scrum-analysis-2267495-Aug2015/

 

[Ian_Cook]

Ok, I found it interesting, until I got to here...

"It’s physically impossible for a scrum to move sideways without a player illegally making it do so"

At this point, I stopped reading, because this statement clearly shows that the writer knows nothing about scrummaging.

 

[Blue Smartie]

Actually Ian, I find Neil's columns extremely good and an excellent referee resource. And given he writes scrum analysis for a living I wouldn't be too hasty with your put downs.
http://bit.ly/1Jj14IC

 

[Ian_Cook]

Actually Ian, I find Neil's columns extremely good and an excellent referee resource. And given he writes scrum analysis for a living I wouldn't be too hasty with your put downs.
http://bit.ly/1Jj14IC

Yep, I agree.

He's a regular analysis man on The42 and I'm a regular reader, especially of Murray Kinsella, whom I consider better analyst.

However, the statement I quoted from Neil Treacy is just plain wrong. All things being equal, a scrum will rotate clockwise, and if one scrum is stronger than the other, the scrum will move to the stronger team's right without anyone doing anything illegal. This is scrummaging 101; if he is callng himself a "scrum analyst" he needs to do better than that.

 

[crossref]

So, there was another noteworthy in the air collision during that game.. Thoughts?

 

[ChrisR]

Here's a link to a Treacy article on wheeling.

www.sportsjoe.ie/rugby/video-we-exp...m-and-show-you-how-to-spot-it-in-a-game/18093

Here is his opening statement: "While it's against the rules of the game to deliberately create a wheel, a side can legally rotate the scrum, providing both props are driving straight."

Since when is it illegal to wheel?

What is "driving straight"? If driving straight means keeping spines aligned with the touch line then the scrum can't rotate. If driving straight means keeping spines aligned with the long axis of the scrum then I don't see the issue with the cardif scrum illustrated.


Just because he gets paid for his opinion doesn't mean he gets it right.

 

[DarrenJones]

In U19 it is illegal to intentionally wheel. Maybe that's where they're getting it? would that have been an older variation of the law perhaps (I haven't been around long enough to say )

 

[Ian_Cook]

In U19 it is illegal to intentionally wheel. Maybe that's where they're getting it? would that have been an older variation of the law perhaps (I haven't been around long enough to say )

There is a reason why the U19 laws do not allow wheeling beyond 45° (and why they also do not allow the scrum to be pushed more than 1.5m in either direction), Safety!

At U19 level, the scrum really is just a way to restart the game.

 

[MrQeu]

Move sideways is not the same as rotating. The images show the scrum moving sideways and the rotating. I think he has a point.

 

[Ian_Cook]

Move sideways is not the same as rotating. The images show the scrum moving sideways and the rotating. I think he has a point.

The writer of the article says this is an example of Black illegally screwing the scrum. I'm not so sure. IMO, its impossible to tell for sure which team is responsible for this scrum going sideways/rotating but there are a couple of clues

1. Black LHP is turned inwards, boring in, which is illegal. However, Gold THP is also illegally turned in and appears to be lifting Black 1 upwards. IMO, what one player is doing is a response to what his opponent is doing. Unfortunately, the clip doesn't show the scrum from the beginning, so we cannot see which player was doing what first.

2. Black 5 definitely appears to be pushing sideways towards his right

3. Gold 2's left arm is lifting his THP's jersey up and to his left, so he is pushing his THP to his left.

The more I look at this clip, the more I think the Gold scrum is pushing the Black scrum to the left (top of picture) and the Black scrum's response is screw the scrum to avoid being pushed sideways. Both trams are equally responsible for what is happening here.

I would reset after a word with the front rows about pushing straight.

 

[MrQeu]

I'm contesting none of that, but your point on the sideways moving.

 

[TheBFG]

I started writing a post about the scrums at top level last week then forgot to post it!

I noticed there seems to be a trait now for sides to get a step to the side and then once the oppos are off balance drive against it, and winning a PKK for it. Back in the day we'd do the same, but it would usually end up with us getting them on the floor and us giving them a good kicking :wink:

So it would appear that a pack that is tightly bound gets the call from the ref. in the clip above too many of the black pack break off/lose bind and I'm guessing gold got the call.

 

[Ian_Cook]

I wonder whether there might be some merit in removing the incentive to wheel the scrum by deleting the last two sentences of Law 20.11 (b), i.e. getting rid of the turnover from a wheeled scrum.

I struggle to see a downside of doing this.

 

[L'irlandais]

Given time our Elite rugby squads will show us the downside of any and all law ammendments.
In the amateur game changes to the Laws were in the interests of improving the game. Professional squads are only interested in exploiting the Laws to win. TV rugby doesn't appear to be improving the game : not so much money trickling down to the grassroots.