Non-throwing No.2

[The Fat]

It was put to me at a local ref's meeting last night that the non-throwing No.2 must remain at 2 & 2 until the Lineout is over. Quick check of the bible and there is sweet FA about the non-throwing No.2 and any restrictions.
Opinions greatfully accepted.

 

[Ian_Cook]

It was put to me at a local ref's meeting last night that the non-throwing No.2 must remain at 2 & 2 until the Lineout is over. Quick check of the bible and there is sweet FA about the non-throwing No.2 and any restrictions.
Opinions greatfully accepted.

Its a bit tricky, but

[LAWS]"DEFINITIONS
Players taking part in the lineout known as participating players. Players
taking part in the lineout are the player who throws-in and an immediate
opponent, the two players waiting to receive the ball from the lineout and the
lineout players.[/LAWS]

That makes him a participating player

[LAWS]19.13 OFFSIDE LINES AT THE LINEOUT
(a) When a lineout forms, there are two separate offside lines, parallel to the goal lines, for the
teams.
(b) Participating players. One offside line applies to the players taking part in the lineout
(usually some or all of the forwards, plus the scrum half and the player throwing in). Until
the ball is thrown in, and has touched a player or the ground, this offside line is the line of
touch. After that, the offside line is a line through the ball.[/LAWS]

Since he is the opponent of the thrower, equity demands that he be allowed to do whatever the thrower can do, and is under the same restrictions that the thrower is under.

[LAWS]19.11 PLAYER THROWING-IN
There are four options available to the player throwing in:
(a) The thrower may stay within 5 metres of the touchline.
(b) The thrower may retire to the offside line 10 metres behind the line of touch.
(c) The thrower may join the lineout as soon as the ball has been thrown in.
(d) The thrower may move into the receiver position if that position is empty. If the thrower
goes anywhere else, the thrower is offside.
Sanction: Penalty kick on the 15-metre line[/LAWS]

 

[The Fat]

My thoughts exactly

 

[Blue Smartie]

There is a diagram at 19.8 which stipulates 2&2m for the non-throwing 'hooker'

 

[Ian_Cook]

There is a diagram at 19.8 which stipulates 2&2m for the non-throwing 'hooker'

Yes, we know. The question asked was how long does he have to stay there?

Currently, there is no Law or clause that says specifically when that player is allowed to leave his position. Law 19.11 refers only to the thrower; I think it make the most sense if it also applies to his opponent.

 

[ChrisR]

One option of the thrower:

(b) The thrower may retire to the offside line 10 metres behind the line of touch.

I think that this option is a relic from the days when wingers threw in at the lineout.

 

[Ian_Cook]

One option of the thrower:

(b) The thrower may retire to the offside line 10 metres behind the line of touch.

I think that this option is a relic from the days when wingers threw in at the lineout.

Yep, and this one

[LAWS](d) The thrower may move into the receiver position if that position is empty. If the thrower
goes anywhere else, the thrower is offside.[/LAWS]


I probably a relic from the days when scrumhalves threw in at the lineout. I remember the French using this ploy quite a bit; we often saw player like Jerome Gallion, Pierre Berbizier and Jean-Pierre Elissalde throw in into the lineout around the early 1980's

 

[OB..]

One option of the thrower:

(b) The thrower may retire to the offside line 10 metres behind the line of touch.

I think that this option is a relic from the days when wingers threw in at the lineout.

:biggrin:

(The requirement to have a player in the non-thrower's position dates from 2009.)

 

[SimonSmith]

Yep, and this one

[LAWS](d) The thrower may move into the receiver position if that position is empty. If the thrower
goes anywhere else, the thrower is offside.[/LAWS]


I probably a relic from the days when scrumhalves threw in at the lineout. I remember the French using this ploy quite a bit; we often saw player like Jerome Gallion, Pierre Berbizier and Jean-Pierre Elissalde throw in into the lineout around the early 1980's

Gallion? I'm not sure he really recovered from the absolute mincing he took off Calder and Leslie in the 84 Grand Slam.

 

[FlipFlop]

Yep, and this one

[LAWS](d) The thrower may move into the receiver position if that position is empty. If the thrower
goes anywhere else, the thrower is offside.[/LAWS]


I probably a relic from the days when scrumhalves threw in at the lineout. I remember the French using this ploy quite a bit; we often saw player like Jerome Gallion, Pierre Berbizier and Jean-Pierre Elissalde throw in into the lineout around the early 1980's

Or even current day 7s at all levels of the game - when the thrower goes to the receiver position.

 

[Blackberry]

The things that catch refs out are
1) There must be a non-thrower, and he must be in the 2 and 2 position at the start
2) You can't have 2 receivers (ie if the non-thrower goes to that position)

Am I right there?

 

[Phil E]

The things that catch refs out are
1) There must be a non-thrower, and he must be in the 2 and 2 position at the start
2) You can't have 2 receivers (ie if the non-thrower goes to that position)

Am I right there?

Yes.......but the receiver can join the line once the ball has left the throwers hands, leaving the thrower to then move in as receiver.

 

[crossref]

Yes.......but the receiver can join the line once the ball has left the throwers hands, leaving the thrower to then move in as receiver.

if the reciever is retiring - by running backwards at a reasonable speed, and the thrower is heading for the receiver's position ..

then is there a period of time where the catcher realistically, and legally, does have a choice of two players to whom he could pass it.. so two receivers (for a period of time)

 

[OB..]

if the reciever is retiring - by running backwards at a reasonable speed, and the thrower is heading for the receiver's position ..

then is there a period of time where the catcher realistically, and legally, does have a choice of two players to whom he could pass it.. so two receivers (for a period of time)

Technically the receiver position is not vacant until he reaches the offside line.

 

[Camquin]

can the receiver retreat - is that not leaving the lineout and illegal under 19.8(d)

 

[Ian_Cook]

can the receiver retreat - is that not leaving the lineout and illegal under 19.8(d)

He can after the ball is thrown. Any player can.

Oops, misread the post.

The receiver is not a lineout player, he's a participating player. Does 19.8 (d) apply?

 

[crossref]

The receiver is allowed to stand anywhere in a large rectangle, from 5m to 15m lines, from 2m back from lineout to 10m back from line of touch

 

[RobLev]

He can after the ball is thrown. Any player can.

Oops, misread the post.

The receiver is not a lineout player, he's a participating player. Does 19.8 (d) apply?

I believe not.

Lineout definitions:

[LAWS]Lineout players are the players who form the two lines that make a lineout.[/LAWS]

19.8(d):

[LAWS]When the ball is in touch, every player who approaches the line of touch is presumed to do so to form a lineout. Players who approach the line of touch must do so without delay. Players of either team must not leave the lineout once they have taken up a position in the lineout until the lineout has ended.[/LAWS]

The lineout referred to in (d) looks to be "the two lines that make a lineout"; formed by every player who approaches the line of touch.