Not back 10 again

[David J.]

I was refereeing a U-19 match. Red v Black. Black is the stronger team, Red is down 12 or so 60 minutes in.

It's open play, a couple breakdowns and a turnover when Red 13 kicks from his 40m and is immediately blocked by 3(!) Black players. Black 9 catches the ball about 15m from his goal line (doesn't call mark). I blow and award a penalty where Black 9 caught the ball. Red 9 takes a quick tap and is tackled by Black 9 after two steps. I blow again and look around.

Players are scattered across the field, Reds are running pretty hard to catch up, Blacks medium hard. Red 9 has 2 or 3 players lined up outside of him. I march 10m, take a breath and make a mark. Red 9 taps and passes and a Red back scores.

I'm pretty sure I did the right thing. In retrospect I could've justified a PT when Black 9 tackled his oppo, but the thought of a PT always comes a little late. The Black coach consoled his team as they gathered under the posts saying "the referee should have waited to make the second mark."

I had to leave immediately after and didn't get the chance to discuss it with the coach. But how long do I need to wait to make the second mark? Until the defense is set? I hope not.

 

[Not Kurt Weaver]

You have stumbled upon one of the common myths in US rugby. You need only to wait until you have made the 10m. The only stipulation is the red can't tap before you make the second mark. Law 21.8 describes in Penalty sentence after para. (h).
Depending on the level, I consider a YC for black 9, but you got it right.

Defending teams often believe the second mark won't be made until they are back ten. They intentionally tackle the quick tapper so their team can recover and only surrender 10m instead of a try. Many teams think this is the norm. It must have been a referee management tactic at some previous season that set this perceived precedent.

 

[SimonSmith]

The myth came about because of what was suggested as a management trick.

They can't go until you make the second mark.
How quickly, or slowly, you do that is up to you.

It was suggested, after that little scrote Matt Dawson made a season of hay from it, that the referee pace the second 10m. It wasn't to allow the defence to realign and set, but to make sure that teams didn't get 30m by simply running into people.

 

[Davet]

Though of course if Dawson had simply run into people then he should not have been given another 10m - if the player chooses to run into the opposition then tough luck - only if the opposition block the player would you go the extra 10.

 

[ddjamo]

contrived infringement...tough luck. I think you did it right DJ.

 

[ExHookah]

DJ in New Mexico (as opposed to DJ in Michigan),

As the other DJ says, you were correct. In fact, as others on the thread have explained, you were correct.

I'd also like to note that you clearly state that you looked around the pitch, took a breath, and then gave the second mark. So it's not as if you were jogging 10m up the pitch with your head down.

Don't worry about the coach's comments under the posts, I came to realize a long time ago that the coach that actually understands the laws correctly is a rare beast.

How is life in NM anyway? I was down in your part of the continent a few weeks ago. I refereed St. George vs Park City Haggis in Utah D1. St. George, Utah is a beautiful area, actually fairly similar in a number of ways to your hometown of Santa Fe. The air is damn thin out in the southwestern desert too!

 

[Simon Thomas]

Good call David J.

Correct process and management for me and the coach can go swivel in his own ignorance.

 

[Dickie E]

I was refereeing a U-19 match. Red v Black. Black is the stronger team, Red is down 12 or so 60 minutes in.

It's open play, a couple breakdowns and a turnover when Red 13 kicks from his 40m and is immediately blocked by 3(!) Black players. Black 9 catches the ball about 15m from his goal line (doesn't call mark). I blow and award a penalty where Black 9 caught the ball. Red 9 takes a quick tap and is tackled by Black 9 after two steps. I blow again and look around.

Players are scattered across the field, Reds are running pretty hard to catch up, Blacks medium hard. Red 9 has 2 or 3 players lined up outside of him. I march 10m, take a breath and make a mark. Red 9 taps and passes and a Red back scores.

I'm pretty sure I did the right thing. In retrospect I could've justified a PT when Black 9 tackled his oppo, but the thought of a PT always comes a little late. The Black coach consoled his team as they gathered under the posts saying "the referee should have waited to make the second mark."

I had to leave immediately after and didn't get the chance to discuss it with the coach. But how long do I need to wait to make the second mark? Until the defense is set? I hope not.

I wouldn't make the mark until I was happy that Black was ready.

 

[Simon Thomas]

Dickie - this was an U19 match.

Fit young men, who should have no problem in making a serious (not just a medium level) effort to get back and be ready.

 

[OB..]

I wouldn't make the mark until I was happy that Black was ready.

Why not? Are they entitled to take as much time as they want to get the defence organised?

 

[FlipFlop]

I'll stick to the:

If I can WALK 10m, they can RUN 20m

I'm not delaying the game because they chose NOT to run.

 

[ex-lucy]

why not a YC for black 9?
as well

 

[David J.]

Thanks all, I guess I just needed affirmation.

Generally, with the U19s we have, and in this specific case, I felt the tackle wasn't cynical, just instinctual. I suppose if I went with a PT, I would have had to award a YC too.

 

[Phil E]

I suppose if I went with a PT, I would have had to award a YC too.

No, not necessarily.
Although the law book seems to indicate you do, an IRB directive said not. Only give a YC as well if you would have done so for the same offense elsewhere on the pitch.

 

[Dickie E]

Why not? Are they entitled to take as much time as they want to get the defence organised?

This is a potential flash point when desperate defenders start doing silly things.

Safety first for me.

 

[OB..]

This is a potential flash point when desperate defenders start doing silly things.

Safety first for me.

Are you saying that you wait until all the defenders are back behind the 10 metre offside line? Including the tired prop who is merely walking because he knows you will hold play up?

 

[Dickie E]

no I'm not saying that

 

[SimonSmith]

This is a potential flash point when desperate defenders start doing silly things.

Safety first for me.

I'm not sure it's a safety thing so much as a discipline thing.

I prefer to give the benefit of the doubt to the attacking team and back myself to handle it.

 

[Donal1988]

I normally wont allow a second "quick" one but a second tap is fine. In my prematch brief I tell SH that he can take quick taps within 1m of the mark (though not in front of it). But I will insist on him being ON the mark second time. Once he does it thats fine. I set that mark at my pace.

Normally I find that it is good management technique to walk forward 10m set my mark and then allow it. However I have seen referees sprint forward 10m and face the same problems again.

 

[andyscott]

If he was tackled after 2 meters and no attempt was made. The Yellow card will slow the game down nicely