Number 8 Binding

[pwhaling]

Quick question on the number 8 binding on the scrum. Once the number 8 has bound onto the scrum (between both locks or lock and flanker), can they change position? I've always told them that they can choose which ever position they want but once decided they are stuck until the scrum is over (I also use the same talk to the flankers and changing their binding angles). However reviewing 20.3 (f), the law says "must bind on a lock’s body with at least one arm prior to the scrum engagement", so does that mean that the no. 8 can move after the scrum has engaged?

20.3 (f) Binding by all other players. All players in a scrum, other than front-row players, must bind on a lock’s body with at least one arm prior to the scrum engagement. The locks must bind with the props in front of them. No other player other than a prop may hold an opponent.

Thanks
Paul

 

[OB..]

Quick question on the number 8 binding on the scrum. Once the number 8 has bound onto the scrum (between both locks or lock and flanker), can they change position? I've always told them that they can choose which ever position they want but once decided they are stuck until the scrum is over (I also use the same talk to the flankers and changing their binding angles). However reviewing 20.3 (f), the law says "must bind on a lock’s body with at least one arm prior to the scrum engagement", so does that mean that the no. 8 can move after the scrum has engaged?

20.3 (f) Binding by all other players. All players in a scrum, other than front-row players, must bind on a lock’s body with at least one arm prior to the scrum engagement. The locks must bind with the props in front of them. No other player other than a prop may hold an opponent.

Thanks
Paul

[LAWS]Law 20.1 (e)
Number of players: eight. A scrum must have eight players from each team. All eight players must stay bound to the scrum until it ends. [/LAWS]
He certainly cannot unbind before the scrum is over. However I see no reason why he cannot change his binding before it starts.

 

[Pinky]

Except that under the U19 rules, it states he must push on both locks. I have always taken that as allowing a no8 in full scrums to push on one lock and one flanker, but I don't think he can move once bound.

 

[Dixie]

Except that under the U19 rules, it states he must push on both locks. I have always taken that as allowing a no8 in full scrums to push on one lock and one flanker, but I don't think he can move once bound.

Interesting. I've always taken the injunction to push on both "locks" as meaning he CANNOT push on a lock and a flanker. It is a specific variation from the adult law; why would you read the specific variation requiring a push on two locks as actually meaning something different?

 

[Davet]

At U19 he must push on BOTH locks, so cannot just push on one.

At senior level he may bind on only one lock, full arm required. so could bind between one lock and the flanker.

So long as he stays bound to one lock at all times then he can move position, though getting from between the locks to outside one lock without ever breaking bind while the scrum is moving might not be as easy as it sounds.

 

[ChrisR]

What it means is that #8 (and flanks) must bind BEFORE scrum engagement, not after.

 

[Pinky]

Dixie, sorry if not clear. No 8 can push on lock and flanker or two locks under full scrummaging. Under u19 he is limited to between the locks. So I agree with you. And as Marauder says, the back row need to bind on before engagement and I don't think they can then move without breaking a bind

 

[Davet]

What it means is that #8 (and flanks) must bind BEFORE scrum engagement, not after.

NO!

20.1.e is explicit all players in the scrum must remain bound from start (ie when 9 throws the ball in) to end of the scrum, (ie when the ball emerges).

20.3.f is a further requirement that players other than FR players must bind on a lock's body before the scrum engagement

 

[tim White]

FR players must bind on a lock's body before the scrum engagement

Now that's a scrum I would like to see!:wtf:

 

[Davet]

Tim - you spotted the deliberate error, :biggrinf course I meant ALL OTHER players apart from the FR

 

[Dickie E]

NO!

20.1.e is explicit all players in the scrum must remain bound from start (ie when 9 throws the ball in) to end of the scrum, (ie when the ball emerges).

20.3.f is a further requirement that players other than FR players must bind on a lock's body before the scrum engagement

So what are we saying? Full binding to occur before engagement and before scrum starts but binding may be altered after engagement and before scrum starts?

 

[Phil E]

So I agree with you. And as Marauder says, the back row need to bind on before engagement and I don't think they can then move without breaking a bind

They only need to be bound with one arm to be fully bound, so it is possible to move by binding one arm, move the other, bind that one, move the other. As long as one arm is fully bound at all times they are ok.

And yes, #8 fully bound before the engage.

 

[Davet]

So what are we saying? Full binding to occur before engagement and before scrum starts but binding may be altered after engagement and before scrum starts?

Are you saying that the two laws,
1 requiring player to be bound before engagement
2 requiring players to be fully bound after the ball comes in until end of scrum
leave a period after engage, before ball comes in when players can unbind?

That may be a technical corollary of the way the law is written, but I can't see anyone allowing it, and the space would be infinitesmal since the ball is required to be put in as soon as the front rows have engaged - though the need to delay put in until the scrum is square and steady may introduce a small delay, but I would not allow players to unbind while we are ensuring square and steady.

However, so long as players do NOT unbind, and all other requirements continue to be met, then they can alter their positions at any time.

It's just not that easy to do.

 

[Ciaran Trainor]

good example of "binding" on SA refs site
http://www.sareferees.co.za/laws/laws_explained/clips/2839804.htm
For me the No8 clearly is unbound when he moves position

 

[Pinky]

Are you saying that the two laws,
1 requiring player to be bound before engagement
2 requiring players to be fully bound after the ball comes in until end of scrum
leave a period after engage, before ball comes in when players can unbind?

That may be a technical corollary of the way the law is written, but I can't see anyone allowing it, and the space would be infinitesmal since the ball is required to be put in as soon as the front rows have engaged - though the need to delay put in until the scrum is square and steady may introduce a small delay, but I would not allow players to unbind while we are ensuring square and steady.

However, so long as players do NOT unbind, and all other requirements continue to be met, then they can alter their positions at any time.

It's just not that easy to do.

Davet, nearly agree with all of that, but flankers are restricted about altering their position (or at least angle) by 20.3 (g)

 

[The Fat]

good example of "binding" on SA refs site
http://www.sareferees.co.za/laws/laws_explained/clips/2839804.htm
For me the No8 clearly is unbound when he moves position

"Binding" by just hanging on with one or two hands seems to be so common in televised games these days. Again, it filters down to grassroots rugby as being acceptable. Makes it tough for us.
The Ulster #8 could also have been penalised for returning the ball to the scrum. The only justification I can see for RP penalising Youngs was if RP only looked after #8 had dragged the ball back into the scrum and Youngs feet were then oppos side of the ball.
This was not one of RP's better games.

 

[Richard smith]

As far as I am concerned, when it comes to the binding of the No8, the only time he should unbound , if you like, is when he his attempting a pick up from his No8 position

 

[Cave Dweller]

Quick question on the number 8 binding on the scrum. Once the number 8 has bound onto the scrum (between both locks or lock and flanker), can they change position? I've always told them that they can choose which ever position they want but once decided they are stuck until the scrum is over (I also use the same talk to the flankers and changing their binding angles). However reviewing 20.3 (f), the law says "must bind on a lock’s body with at least one arm prior to the scrum engagement", so does that mean that the no. 8 can move after the scrum has engaged?20.3 (f) Binding by all other players. All players in a scrum, other than front-row players, must bind on a lock’s body with at least one arm prior to the scrum engagement. The locks must bind with the props in front of them. No other player other than a prop may hold an opponent.ThanksPaul

Number 8's are responsible for most early engagements as the use a technique called the slingshot. They will ignite the engage and enhance the hit. Watch out as they are trying to be clever and tell you they cannot hear the call when you you catch them looking straight at you. Make sure everyone is in a interlock position first and the tightheads elbows is point to you not hanging to keep the tunnel open. The number 8 head must be between the locks make sure of it.

 

[Phil E]

The number 8 head must be between the locks make sure of it.

No, he can bind onto the outside of a lock if he wishes.

 

[Pinky]

No, he can bind onto the outside of a lock if he wishes.

Agree for adults, but not in U19 law.