Number 8 unbind...

[talbazar]

From my game yesterday.
Blue Scrum Half asked me a clarification during the game but didn't really get my answer. So we had a god chat after the game and I'd like to validate (or being told wrong for) my interpretation of:

[LAWS]20.10.(c): Hindmost player unbinds. The hindmost player in a scrum is the player whose feet are nearest the team’s own goal line. If the hindmost player unbinds from the scrum with the ball at that player’s feet and picks up the ball, the scrum ends.[/LAWS]

Question is: When can the defending SH go for the ball?

I've bolded in the law the part that justifies my interpretation:
Defending SH should give enough time to the number 8 to pick up the ball.

Meaning:
1. If the number 8, unbinds and go for the ball immediately, them the scrum hasn't ended until number 8 picks up the ball. He is then fair game (not the ball).
2. If the number 8 unbinds and stays there "for a while" ball is fair game for the defending SH. To be pedantic, the number 8 could even be penalised for unbinding from the scrum...

Your thoughts?
Cheers,
Pierre.

 

[The Fat]

So we had a god chat after the game

So did you manage to get him to see the light? (sorry, couldn't help myself)

My understanding is that if the #8, having the ball at his feet, unbinds to pick the ball up, the opposing SH cannot go for the 8 until he puts hand/hands on the ball and starts to pick it up. At that point the scrum has ended as per your law reference. If the #8 unbinds but does not attempt to pick the ball up, he has broken his bind early and is liable to PK. If he does so, I would also say that the ball is now out and the opposing SH can go for the ball ( Law 20.10(a) ).
So pretty much see it the same as you do.

 

[andyscott]

Ping the scrum half for being in front of the ball, they always will be.

 

[didds]

which only leaves the question...

if the #8 unbinds and whilst in the act of "immediately" picking the ball up the oppo 9 also plays the ball...

what then?

maybe the ball is not out until picked up - but this is debunked because if a long period ensues post #8 unbinding then the early unbind PK is on the cards. So if the #8 thus IS unbound the ball MUST be out QED.

didds

 

[winchesterref]

Didds when you say "in the act of immediately" do you mean on the way down? Or once he has touched the ball?

 

[ChrisR]

We've been here before and there seem to be two schools of thought. Those expressed above where the scrum doesn't end until the 8 picks it up and mine. Mine is: The scrum is over when the hindmost unbinds with the ball at his feet therefore putting the ball outside the arc of the players feet.

To call it otherwise introduces unnecessary timing issues regards how long he has to pick it up.

Thread hijack alert ... If the 8 unbinds but holds onto the scrum with just his hands and the ball at his feet do you signal/call "Scrum ended" or let the defending SH guess?

 

[winchesterref]

Marauder your view of when it is over would then be considered not in line with law surely?

We try to preserve space and allow the ball to played at other phases, why is this one any different? Insist on space and time and allow a cleaner game.

 

[ChrisR]

In the real world there's enough time for a competent 8 to unbind and play the ball. Remeber the defending SH can't flop on the ball, he has to make a play for it on his feet.

 

[talbazar]

Thread hijack alert ... If the 8 unbinds but holds onto the scrum with just his hands and the ball at his feet do you signal/call "Scrum ended" or let the defending SH guess?

Technically yes, you're right. And that's where the "timing" issue appears to me...

In the real world there's enough time for a competent 8 to unbind and play the ball. Remeber the defending SH can't flop on the ball, he has to make a play for it on his feet.

True, but if the ball is out, the SH can kick it... And that's quick, particularly if the scrum is not exactly stable by then...

Marauder your view of when it is over would then be considered not in line with law surely?

We try to preserve space and allow the ball to played at other phases, why is this one any different? Insist on space and time and allow a cleaner game.

That's exactly what I was trying to explain the defending SH after the game...
But your words are a lot clearer than mine at that time

 

[ChrisR]

So, jonesp92, if the 8 unbound and immediately moved to his right (thereby not interfering with the defending SH) and the attacking SH picked up the ball and passed it to him you would ping the 8 for not picking up the ball?

See, I think the "and picks up the ball" is like junk DNA. It exists but we're not sure why. What does it do? It's really doesn't have a purpose.

 

[didds]

Didds when you say "in the act of immediately" do you mean on the way down? Or once he has touched the ball?

before he's touched the ball.

ie between the act of unbinding and playing the ball.


clearly if he picks the ball up and is possession of the ball he can be tackled.

didds

 

[OB..]

So, jonesp92, if the 8 unbound and immediately moved to his right (thereby not interfering with the defending SH) and the attacking SH picked up the ball and passed it to him you would ping the 8 for not picking up the ball?

See, I think the "and picks up the ball" is like junk DNA. It exists but we're not sure why. What does it do? It's really doesn't have a purpose.

It does have the effect of stopping the play you described.

From 1996 the law required all 8 players to remain bound until the scrum ended, and this exception was added at the same time to allow the #8 to break with the ball.

 

[ChrisR]

I guess my point is this: When the hindmost player with the ball at his feet unbinds the ball has now "left the scrum" and therefore, to my mind, the scrum is over and we are in general play. That player could pick it up, play it with his feet, move to a position to receive it from his SH or get out of the way.

He's not allowed to interfere with an opponent attempting to play the ball (that is unbind and back into the ops SH). In nearly every case HE PICKS IT UP. The requirement for him to pick up the ball is really superfluous and unnecessarily restraining.

As to the desire to have an open game by waiting until the 8 picks it up. When the ball exits the scrum, without the 8 unbinding, does the scrum not end until the SH picks it up? Hell, no. The scrum has ended and the SH better get with it.

 

[Camquin]

If the no 8 goes sideways without picking up the ball not only has broken his bind before the end of the scrum, he is also offside as all those not taking part have to be 5m back fro the hindmost feet.

 

[ChrisR]

Camquin, by my reading, after the 8 breaks the scrum is over so the 5m doesn't apply. If the ball is not at his feet then that is a different ball of wax as the scrum then would not be over.

 

[OB..]

Camquin, by my reading, after the 8 breaks the scrum is over so the 5m doesn't apply. If the ball is not at his feet then that is a different ball of wax as the scrum then would not be over.

The law says he cannot break until the scrum is over. If the ball is at his feet when he is bound, then it is not out, so the scrum is not over.

The law allows an exception provided he picks up the ball, which is one way of ensuring that the ball is indeed at his feet so that he can pick it up.

 

[winchesterref]

By your reading, you're surely wrong. The law tells you the 8 can pick the ball up, indeed it suggests 3 ways the scrum is over.

1. Ball is out
2. Scrum in goal
3. Unbinds AND picks up the ball

If he unbinds and moves away the ball is out and fulfils criteria 1.
If he unbinds and falls over he is out of the game, ball is out and meets number 1
If he unbinds and goes to pick up (or play, i.e. Flick - modern style of play) the ball but isn't allowed to by the act of the opposition 9 then none of the criteria are met and he scrum has not ended.

The law tells you what to expect. The law is consistent throughout in granting space to attacking team/ball carriers, why is this different? We referee to preserve space. We referee to allow the game to flow and the ball to be used, why would we not allow it here and go against what the law explicitly tells you should happen for the scrum to end?

 

[Dickie E]

The law allows an exception provided he picks up the ball, which is one way of ensuring that the ball is indeed at his feet so that he can pick it up.

Agree. A couple of seasons ago I penalised a #8 for unbinding then flicking the ball to his SH. Now that I am older & wiser, I would allow a pick up or a flick up but he must do one or the other.

 

[OB..]

If he unbinds and moves away the ball is out and fulfils criteria 1.

but he breaches Law 20.1 (e). He unbound before the ball was out. That is why the exception is there - to allow him to unbind (provided he picks up the ball).

 

[winchesterref]

Sorry yes, slipped my mind. Had been out at the German market having a few beers!

Either way, he is specifically told to pick the ball up which means I don't think it can be looked at any other way!