NZ v Aus New Scrum Procedure

[Gracie]

Is it me? Aus consistently putting ball in straight (but pinged once) NZ consistently squint feed (but only pinged once). It seems pretty clear from Aaron Smith's body position that he is going to put it into the second row and he is, It is a situation made more obvious by NZ hooker pushing only not hooking. Joubert seems to be letting it go. For me, not the example I want to see at elite rugby.

 

[winchesterref]

You spoke too soon...!

 

[Gracie]

Pleased to see Joubert calling more squint feeds as the second half went on, but generally I thought he needs to be more assertive earlier. For me he needs to ensure scrum halves get ball in quicker and discipline the early 'mini hit' that both were trying ahead of put in. One of the NZ tries seemed to come from a put in that went straight through.

Overall, as a grass roots ref I'm pleased to see that a move to improve the scrum has started, now we need to see the elite games implement the changes assertively

 

[Ian_Cook]

Is it me? Aus consistently putting ball in straight (but pinged once) NZ consistently squint feed (but only pinged once). It seems pretty clear from Aaron Smith's body position that he is going to put it into the second row and he is, It is a situation made more obvious by NZ hooker pushing only not hooking. Joubert seems to be letting it go. For me, not the example I want to see at elite rugby.

Its you.

Both sides pinged three times for squint feeds, and the NZ hooker was definitely hooking on the NZ feed. He doesn't have to hook on the opposition feed.

However, to be fair to both half-backs, the scrum was often not square and stable when Joubert was calling "yes 9", so the referees need to work on that.

 

[The Fat]

Doesn't matter. I'm pissed and we got owned. Will need to watch the replay to check the technical details.
Welcome to coaching at international level Link. I think we will be more competitive in game 2. Waiting to hear the thoughts of all the debutantes.
Watched the game at my local club (beers flowing freely with some stupid game called cheers and yes, they picked on the old guy) and the front rowers are a bit each way on the new scrums. TH props consistantly not able to get a long bind. All seem to be binding under the arm pit. Same with the Toulon game in French Top 14 this morning.
Still a few collapses. Will be interesting to see the scrum stats.

 

[Mike Whittaker]

Following observations on scrums - timing approx mins and either A or N ball.

Posted without looking at other comments. Will add comment in due course - perhaps

9 min. A Not straight (N/S) and F/K . N elect for Scrum (S)
N OK (both these scrums were a bit unstable)

24 min N N/S and F/K. A elect S JC tells all that N/S will be a penalty (P)
A OK

35min N General collapse and reset (query straight?)
reset N OK



41 min A OK but heeled so fast that SH misses it coming out of wrong channel

43 min N Reformed before they 'set' and told to 'come closer'
N heel it but go down under pressure - P to A
(query that it was straight)

54 min A OK but scrum collapsing as ball emerges.

55min A Reformed as for scrum at 43
A2 miss strikes and ball emerges at side for N to gain possession.
(was it straight out? It led to N try)

66 min A 'new props' says JC and has a chat
N/S and P to N. (clearly crooked)


70min A N/S and P to N (clearly crooked)

74min N Reformed as for 43 and 55
OK

 

[winchesterref]

Mike not sure but I think there was a pen to Aus for a n/z not straight later in the game, have you got one the wrong way round?

 

[Ian_Cook]

IMO, the scrums started a bit scratchily, but there was a definite, steady improvement as the game progressed. From about mid way through the first half to midway through the second, the scrums all appeared to be mostly square and stationary, but then there were a couple of FR subs and they went backwards a bit.

All in all, I think it was a very encouraging sign of better things to come. I think the players are still getting to grips (no pun intended) with the engage procedure under actual competition conditions; very different from mere practice.

Overall, I thought Joubert had a very good game and managed the scrum well, although I agree with those who say he was a bit lenient at the beginning. I expect referees will improve their scrum management as time goes on.

 

[johnH]

In general the scrum looked a lot better, though still some early pushing and still some feeding

I think the AR could have advised CJ when the ball went through the tunnel without being hooked, leading immediately to the 4th All Black try. At grassroots level the players let you know, but maybe these elite players have never seen a ball go straight through the tunnel before...

 

[damo]

I thought the scrums were pretty good, all in all. Joubert certainly did his best to enforce straight put-ins. You could quibble that some of the ones he let go were also marginal, but no ref is going to see everything, and just pinging the odd one will have a tangible effect on them anyway as halfbacks will be fearful of it. He did a better job than we have see from the ITM Cup refs in this regard.

Aside from the feeds I don't think there is much to complain about. There was 3 resets, and one PK. More importantly though, you could see that there was a tangible benefit to competing on the opposition ball. Australia had one scrum where they failed to get a strike on the ball, and another couple where the strike was too fast and it popped out uncontrollably.

I reckon the NZ scrum was slightly on top and they got rewarded, not with PK's but with disrupting the other teams ball and securing good ball for themselves. This has to be an improvement on some of the stuff we have seen for the past couple of years. Too early to say for definite, but I remain optimistic that this is heading in the right direction.

 

[damo]

In general the scrum looked a lot better, though still some early pushing and still some feeding

I think the AR could have advised CJ when the ball went through the tunnel without being hooked, leading immediately to the 4th All Black try. At grassroots level the players let you know, but maybe these elite players have never seen a ball go straight through the tunnel before...

I wondered about that. We didn't get a real good look at the replay and the AR was right there. Maybe the ball popped out just behind the prop's foot. After all the AR was in such a good position, it seems unlikely that he would have simply missed it if it was obviously out of the tunnel.

 

[Felk]

Is it me? Aus consistently putting ball in straight (but pinged once) NZ consistently squint feed (but only pinged once). It seems pretty clear from Aaron Smith's body position that he is going to put it into the second row .

Not just you. It had me yelling at the TV. Oh life was much easier before I decided to get a whistle !

 

[Robert Burns]

Scrums were awful, one thing I noticed was that ALL FK/PK for not straight were within 10m lines, i.e as far from being critical decisions as you can get.

This includes those in RSA v Arg game too.

Seems to me that refs at top end are toeing the line, but only in areas least likely to cause an issue.

Not best, but a starts I suppose.

 

[Rushforth]

Scrums were awful, one thing I noticed was that ALL FK/PK for not straight were within 10m lines, i.e as far from being critical decisions as you can get.

This includes those in RSA v Arg game too.

Seems to me that refs at top end are toeing the line, but only in areas least likely to cause an issue.

Not best, but a starts I suppose.

The first scrums took place in the 9th minute (8:30). The first was awarded to Australia, and they went forwards (towards the opponents dead-ball line) about 40-50 cm in both the first and the reset for feeding.

I feel that NZ fed at the second attempt too, but given that it was the second time in 15 years that Australia went forwards on the engagement too, CJ likely let it go.

Colour me surprised that you are criticising the man in the middle, RB; the man who has his calls judged by a million in armchairs in the first match of the "Championship" will inevitably have to manage far more than most of us can imagine.

Collapse in WP vs FS before ball in. Another reset. Pushing before the ball was in on third attempt, but as straight a feed as is possible.

 

[Mike Whittaker]

Mike not sure but I think there was a pen to Aus for a n/z not straight later in the game, have you got one the wrong way round?

I have it recorded so if you can tell me which one I will check.

 

[Mike Whittaker]

Scrums were awful, one thing I noticed was that ALL FK/PK for not straight were within 10m lines, i.e as far from being critical decisions as you can get.

This includes those in RSA v Arg game too.

Seems to me that refs at top end are toeing the line, but only in areas least likely to cause an issue.

Not best, but a starts I suppose.

I hope, Robert, that in your implied criticism of the referee and disparaging reflection on the scrums in general you are not overlooking the total failure of the Australian front row, hooker in particular, to be able to 'hook' without a crooked feed, for which the SH was correctly penalised and then substituted?

 

[Ian_Cook]

I think the AR could have advised CJ when the ball went through the tunnel without being hooked, leading immediately to the 4th All Black try. At grassroots level the players let you know, but maybe these elite players have never seen a ball go straight through the tunnel before...

I wondered about that. We didn't get a real good look at the replay and the AR was right there. Maybe the ball popped out just behind the prop's foot. After all the AR was in such a good position, it seems unlikely that he would have simply missed it if it was obviously out of the tunnel.

[laws]20.7 WHEN THE SCRUM BEGINS
(c) If the ball is not played by a front row player, and it goes straight through the tunnel and
comes out behind the foot of a far prop without being touched, the scrum half must throw it
in again.[/laws]


The ball was kicked out by the black hooker.....

The ball is just sitting there in front of the Wallaby THP, then is suddenly propelled out.....watch for Mealamu's white boot.

The AR had a perfect view, that's probably why he didn't call it.

 

[The Fat]

But the ball came out of the tunnel which requires a reset.

(b)
If the scrum half throws in the ball and it comes out at either end of the tunnel, the ball must be thrown in again unless a free kick or penalty has been awarded.

 

[Dickie E]

Ian's clip doesn't show it but I believe the ball struck the arm of the Black #6 so should have been a knock on. As the result was a Black try this is known in the trade as a critical error.

 

[Dickie E]

The ball was kicked out by the black hooker.....

So what?

[LAWS](b) If the scrum half throws in the ball and it comes out at either end of the tunnel, the ball must be thrown in again unless a free kick or penalty has been awarded.[/LAWS]