Off side from the charge down.

[taff426]

An issue occurred within the Blues v Scarlets fixture today which left me slightly confused.

Blues kick from hand, charged down bye Scarlets, with a player in front of the player who charged down. The charged ball was then played by the originally kicker, to the player in front of the charger. Referee awarded the try as he was adjudged onside as the blues player played it.

My question is, does the 10m rule not apply from the charge down?

 

[FlipFlop]

Can you re-word that with colours for all the players?

Confused as to which team each player was on...

 

[taff426]

Blues kick forward, charged by red. Red player in front of charger. Ball is played by blue kicker but knocked to red player in front of charger

 

[leaguerefaus]

Someone will be able to link you to a HUGE discussion previously had on this topic (whether the 10m law applies to charge downs)... not fun times at all.

 

[The Fat]

10m law applies only to players on the kicker's team (in this case blue).
Had the "2nd" red player played the ball direct from the charge down by his own red team mate, he would have been offside (i.e. a player in front of a team mate who LAST played the ball). However, in this case blue played the ball after the charge down.

 

[Daftmedic]

 

[Taff]

The 10m Law only applies to kicks - not charge downs.

What crossed my mind was whether the Red player was capable of being put onside by Blue, because he kept moving forward even when he was offside. My understanding was that if an offside player kept moving forward, he could not be put onside by an opponent.

 

[The Fat]

The 10m Law only applies to kicks - not charge downs.

What crossed my mind was whether the Red player was capable of being put onside by Blue, because he kept moving forward even when he was offside. My understanding was that if an offside player kept moving forward, he could not be put onside by an opponent.

Have not seen any video and OP doesn't say if "2nd" red player was moving forward towards the ball as blue played it after the charge down.
You raise an interesting point Taff and one I hadn't considered when making my first post.

 

[crossref]

The 10m Law only applies to kicks - not charge downs.

What crossed my mind was whether the Red player was capable of being put onside by Blue, because he kept moving forward even when he was offside. My understanding was that if an offside player kept moving forward, he could not be put onside by an opponent.

this is not a 10m rule question then, it's about moving forwards.

My understanding is this
- blue kick
- red charge down
- red players in front of the charger are in an offside position, as they are in front of team mate who last played the ball
- 10m rule does not apply because they are not waiting to receive a ball
- nevertheless like any player in an offside position they cannot move forward toward the ball but have to remain still until put onside
- like any other offside player they can be put on side by an opponent.

 

[Browner]

The 10m Law only applies to kicks - not charge downs.

What crossed my mind was whether the Red player was capable of being put onside by Blue, because he kept moving forward even when he was offside. My understanding was that if an offside player kept moving forward, he could not be put onside by an opponent.

Incapable.

 

[Browner]

this is not a 10m rule question then, it's about moving forwards.

My understanding is this
- blue kick
- red charge down
- red players in front of the charger are in an offside position, as they are in front of team mate who last played the ball
- 10m rule does not apply because they are not waiting to receive a ball
- nevertheless like any player in an offside position they cannot move forward toward the ball but have to remain still until put onside
- like any other offside player they can be put on side by an opponent.

But he was moving forward before the opponent played the ball ....... So what's the call?

 

[crossref]

if he is in front of a team mate, who last played ball, and continues to move forward towards the ball then he is offside and if it is material = PK

 

[OB..]

What was the 2nd Red player doing just before the charge down? Surely he would have been expecting a successful kick, so I cannot see any reason why he would have been moving forward at the time. In which case the assumption is that he turned to move forward when he saw the charge down. Offside and moving forward = PK.

(if there had been a legitimate reason for moving forward earlier, i would be asking myself if he had a reasonable opportunity to react to the charge donw.)

 

[The Fat]

Video here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KY_ODhbeYI

Two questions relating to this incident.
How far away from the kicker can you be to be considered to be charging the ball down?
What if the ball came off the 1st red player's chest and wasn't actually played (some on here have argued in the past that not trying to play the ball i.e. having the ball hit a player, is not playing the ball)?


Before seeing the video, I was trying to picture how we could have had the 2nd red player in front of the first as most charge downs have the kicker and charger within a couple of metres of each other. In this case, they are 8m apart when the blues player kicks the ball.
In the video, it is not a charge down, the ball simply rifles into the 1st red player. It is not clear if he actually gets a hand to it or if it rebounds off his chest.

 

[Browner]

At kick speed I'd say all any kick that hits a player (above the waist) (as its climbing/horizontal ) needs to be considered a charge down, In unslowmo'd rugby.

Simply because it all happens so damn quick to determine otherwise.

You have to say that red 'played' the ball , for C&O reasons.
Interesting point though.

Offside, continued moving forward, so incapable of remedy until the next ruck/maul Offside line is created. PK blue.

 

[leaguerefaus]

[LAWS]If a player charges down the ball as an opponent kicks it, or immediately after the kick, it is not a knock-on even though the ball may travel forward.[/LAWS]

For all intents and purposes, so long as the ball is still rising, it should be all sweet!

 

[Rushforth]

I think this has another thread already, which didn't have the video.

[LAWS]Law 12 EXCEPTION
Charge down. If a player charges down the ball as an opponent kicks it, or immediately after the kick, it is not a knock-on even though the ball may travel forward.[/LAWS]

If it - in your words - rifles into Red A, then that is pretty much immediate - the ball was not "played" by him, and it is irrelevant if he gets a hand to it.

I see no reason whatsoever not to "play on". The kicker risks a low trajectory being blocked/charged down and the exact distance is irrelevant to me. But there are wiser heads than mine

 

[Taff]

Doesn't 11.1(c) apply?

11.1 Offside in general play
(c) Offside and moving forward. When a team-mate of an offside player has kicked ahead, the offside player must not move towards opponents who are waiting to play the ball, or move towards the place where the ball lands, until the player has been put onside.12

 

[The Fat]

At kick speed I'd say all any kick that hits a player (above the waist) (as its climbing/horizontal ) needs to be considered a charge down, In unslowmo'd rugby.

Simply because it all happens so damn quick to determine otherwise.

You have to say that red 'played' the ball , for C&O reasons.
Interesting point though.

Offside, continued moving forward, so incapable of remedy until the next ruck/maul Offside line is created. PK blue.

I was just playing devil's advocate in relation to the bit in bold.

The laws say that the ball is played when a player touches the ball. There have been arguments on here in the past where some folk say that statement implies intent by the player. Others argue that it makes no difference if the player touches the ball (i.e. makes a deliberate attempt to touch/play the ball) or if the ball touches the player (i.e. the player had no control over how the ball came to touch him/her).
Therefore there would be some who would argue that a ball kicked into a player rather than the player attempting to charge down or play the ball would have effect on Law 11.1
I agree with your other point that if the ball is still on the way up from a kick, it can be charged down, but a ball travelling horizontally could be quite some distance from the kicker and how far would you allow it to travel before saying the charge down is no longer on? In this particular case the players were 8m apart when the ball was kicked. Would you make the cut off (i.e. "sellable") distance 10m or 12m or 15m or........?

 

[The Fat]

Doesn't 11.1(c) apply?

No. Red did not kick the ball.