[Law] Offence before the game

[Paule23]

This thread comes about for a recent thread over whether you can start the second half with a penalty due to an out of time offence.

Similar question but for issues before the game. I'm not necessarily taking about foul play (but feel free to comment) but what about teams delaying kick off, either through arriving late, or not listening to instructions to be ready?

As a referee can I sanction during the game, I.e start with a penalty to the opposition (who were in the field and ready in plenty of time) or do you have no direct sanction, have to sit and wait with no threat of action, and report through the relevant competition authority?

 

[crossref]

I don't think there is any on-field action you can take, other than - in extremis - abandon the game. I don't think you can start the game with a PK.

If there is some incident that would be RC worthy on the field (a fight, or someone badly abusing ref) then again the position isn't clear : I'd imagine that you could legitimately demand that the culprit could not take to the field, and would report the incident, though perhaps not on the RC form. They would probably still start with 15 players.

That said it all depends on timing. If all the players are on the pitch about to kick off and you say 'are you ready blue' and the answer comers back - 'yes we are and it's about time you f**** cheating c***, ref' then you'd probably issue a RC and make them start with 14... I guess.

 

[Taff]

... I'm not necessarily taking about foul play (but feel free to comment) but what about teams delaying kick off, either through arriving late, or not listening to instructions to be ready? As a referee can I sanction during the game, I.e start with a penalty to the opposition...

Delaying is a FK offence.

 

[crossref]

wasting time is a FK offence, but before the game the clock hasn't started.

 

[Paule23]

So is there anything I can reasonably do as a ref if a team is taking the p;:s?

i've had a coulple of games where I've been clear a couple of times how close we are to kick off, only to see a team bugger off the the changing rooms 5 minutes before kick off and not return until 10 or 15 minutes later. Incredibly frustrating!

 

[JSAK]

I routinely subtract the time wasted from the clock. So if they screw around for 10 minutes, the first half is only 30 minutes. Unfortunately this penalizes both sides, but with time I hope the word spreads amongst the teams.

 

[Drift]

Usually it's in the competition rules for the society. Over here if a team don't show up for kick off within 5-10 minutes (I think) you start with a PK against them.

 

[L'irlandais]

[laws]law 7.1. A match is started by a kick-off.[/laws]To start with a penalty is to ignore a law of the game.:sad:

Presumably ignoring the result of the coin toss too. [laws]13.2 Who takes the kick-off and restart kick[/laws]

 

[Dickie E]

Usually it's in the competition rules for the society. Over here if a team don't show up for kick off within 5-10 minutes (I think) you start with a PK against them.

If its a genuine cock-up (bus broke down, heavy traffic, someone forgot the bag of jumpers, etc) then I will have some sympathy. But if it's a wilful delay to the start, then PK.

And in any case, a forfeit if 15 minutes expires.

 

[Dickie E]

[laws]law 7.1. A match is started by a kick-off.[/laws]To start with a penalty is to ignore a law of the game.:sad:

Presumably ignoring the result of the coin toss too. [laws]13.2 Who takes the kick-off and restart kick[/laws]

well, the restart after a knock on is a scrum. Unless one team or the other does something naughty in which case it might not be a scrum. Is that ignoring a law?

 

[OB..]

[laws]law 7.1. A match is started by a kick-off.[/laws]To start with a penalty is to ignore a law of the game.:sad:

Just like you do every time a scrum half picks the ball out of a ruck.

 

[Pegleg]

I routinely subtract the time wasted from the clock. So if they screw around for 10 minutes, the first half is only 30 minutes. Unfortunately this penalizes both sides, but with time I hope the word spreads amongst the teams.

Can't agree with that. You are indeed penalising an innocent party. As stated the proscribed sanction for delay at a drop out is a FK. Nothing is said about a Kick off. Though if the kick is not correctly taken a scrum is awarded 13.1 (b). So you can start with out a successful kick.

Local rules can certainly apply. I would be tempted to FK an unreasonable delay. Unfortunately at the top level the delay is usually down to the TV people.

Anybody going to let a team kick off to a pitch empty of players if it is the receivign side that is delaying things?

I guess the key is game management.

 

[L'irlandais]

Just like you do every time a scrum half picks the ball out of a ruck.

since presumably the ball cannot leave a ruck by it's own locomotion, it is understood that a player is involved in the action. Just the laws aren't written by legalists but by rugby men.
[laws]16.6 Successful end to a ruck
A ruck ends successfully when the ball leaves the ruck, or when the ball is on or over the goal line.[/laws]never in 35 years of rugby have I seen (or heard of) a match starting with a penalty. Much more novel idea than letting a scrum half handle the ball in a ruck.

 

[FlipFlop]

There was a game at Richmond about 10 years ago, where the Ref started with one team in the changing rooms as they refused to come on on time. Team came out to see opposition lining up the conversion. No idea about the actual result etc. Any London guys have along enough memory for that one?

 

[crossref]

There was a game at Richmond about 10 years ago, where the Ref started with one team in the changing rooms as they refused to come on on time. Team came out to see opposition lining up the conversion. No idea about the actual result etc. Any London guys have along enough memory for that one?

it strikes me as a myth -- surely no one would ever start a game with one team on the pitch. How is that going to unfold? What's the chance of that leading to a game of rugbhy ? How is the referee going to come out of that that looking like the good guy, and not the dick.

 

[Dickie E]

particularly if the kick off hadn't gone 10

 

[FlipFlop]

it strikes me as a myth -- surely no one would ever start a game with one team on the pitch. How is that going to unfold? What's the chance of that leading to a game of rugbhy ? How is the referee going to come out of that that looking like the good guy, and not the dick.

Fairly certain not a myth. I think i might even have been at the ground that day reffing another team, or there the next week or something. Certainly was in the papers. Perhaps in 2006-7 season or even 2007-8 season???

A lot of stink was raised, and appeals etc. But from memory Richmond refused to come out, despite several requests, so ref just started without them. Not sure if it all stood, or what happened to the ref.

 

[OB..]

since presumably the ball cannot leave a ruck by it's own locomotion, it is understood that a player is involved in the action. Just the laws aren't written by legalists but by rugby men.
[laws]16.6 Successful end to a ruck
A ruck ends successfully when the ball leaves the ruck, or when the ball is on or over the goal line.[/laws]never in 35 years of rugby have I seen (or heard of) a match starting with a penalty. Much more novel idea than letting a scrum half handle the ball in a ruck.

In over 60 years of involvement in rugby, I have never seen a game delayed to the point of needing a sanction..

The situation is not catered for in the laws. The law you quoted does not say that a match can ONLY be started by a kick-off. Since I take the view that a referee should interpret the laws sensibly, I do not place much faith on overly literal interpretations. I would expect a referee to try and manage the situation, initially by finding out what the problem was.

At a league match a couple of years ago, a car carrying several of the away team got stuck in a traffic jam. The referee was consulted and he got the captains together; they agreed to delay kick-off by 15 minutes, but no longer because it would get too dark to finish the match. The missing car arrived as the match started with the away team only having 13 players on the pitch.

 

[crossref]

Fairly certain not a myth. I think i might even have been at the ground that day reffing another team, or there the next week or something. Certainly was in the papers. Perhaps in 2006-7 season or even 2007-8 season???

A lot of stink was raised, and appeals etc. But from memory Richmond refused to come out, despite several requests, so ref just started without them. Not sure if it all stood, or what happened to the ref.

I can't see how a referee would think he would come out that well.

You start the game -- (lucky that the team who were present were the ones due to kick off) and they score seven points.
Now what?
- Do you stop the watch?
- Do you award a FK against the absent team for time wasting? (and score and repeat)
I think you'd just look increasingly foolish

and then when the absent team came out, it's hard to imagine they would simply play the game, starting at 28-0 down (or whatever) so the match would be abandoned anyway.

I just can't see a referee really starting down that path.

However stranger things have happened!

 

[talbazar]

Starting a game with a FK, I've seen it when I was playing:
A team refused to get out of the lockers on the 3rd knock on the door while we were waiting on the pitch.
FK to us...

I would personally start the game with a PK if a player is taking the p*$s.
Imagine that, just before kick off:
Ref: "Ready blue?"
Blue Cap: "Yes sir"
Ref: "Red?"
Red Cap: "What do you f**ing think you cheating t#&t?"

:deadhorse: