Offside or Not?

Dickie E


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I can see how the TMO was fooled into thinking the poor offside player was just innocently passing through when accidently clobbered in the head. )

that's what they call a non sequitur. What makes you think the TMO was fooled regarding the innocence of the retiring player? He simply concluded that the White player didn't intentionally play the ball - irrespective of any other event.

What if the White player had been intentionally onside? Does that mean that the ball hitting him is intentionally playing the ball?
 

crossref


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An onside player, of course, is allowed to block a pass , so no need to dissemble .
 

crossref


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As an aside , this one is also on the London Facebook group where the same arguments are expressed but the majority there consider that blue are played onside , therefore try.
I know , that doesn't prove anything
 

Dickie E


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An onside player, of course, is allowed to block a pass , so no need to dissemble .

I'm not dissembling anything. My point is that just because a player intentionally does A, it is a stretch to conclude that he is also intentionally doing B.

I intentionally went outside today and then it started to rain. I got wet.

Was I careless or reckless? Maybe. Did I intend to get wet? No.
 

crossref


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Dickie, you misunderstood me, I wasn't clear ...

I meant that an onside player would have no need to dissemble (ie to pretend it hit him accidentally) .

I wasn't accusing you of dissembling .
 

Rich_NL

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IMO this argument holds a lot of merit that the player had every intention that the ball would hit him.

I've never heard of a lazy runner intending to be hit by the ball. I've never played with or against anyone who's expressed that as an aim. Get in the way a bit, distract the half-backs, maybe. It doesn't make sense - getting hit by the ball is failing as a lazy runner because you give away the penalty and risk a card - you may as well just run in from offside and tackle the scrum half.

it could easily be conceived that allowing the ball to hit him, but feign that we was somehow trying to get out of the way

He doesn't change direction or speed as he runs, from before the scrum-half picks up a bobbling ball and while. Psychically controlling the scrum-half and the receiving back line into position is not an easy conception for me.

I can see how the TMO was fooled into thinking the poor offside player was just innocently passing through

I don't think anyone believes he was there innocently. But intent is a judgement call; maybe he used amazing predictive powers and uncanny timing to position his head on the path of the ball between the 9 and the 5, in the hope that his team would... win a penalty against. In that case, I agree the blue player was put onside.

Why does this bother me? Imagine you go to a bar, a fight breaks out, you get caught up in it. The police come and the prosecution says "you went to the bar intentionally; everyone knows that there's a risk of a fight at a bar, therefore you intentionally started the fight." You'd think a judge/jury that accepted that argument were out of their minds.
 

crossref


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No argument is ever won by analogies :)
But many courts hear .. yes i went to the gathering where i knew a fight was likely , carrying a knife, but I never meant to stab anyone

Making a judgement about that is just what referees ... I mean juries ... are here for
 

DocY


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I've never heard of a lazy runner intending to be hit by the ball. I've never played with or against anyone who's expressed that as an aim. Get in the way a bit, distract the half-backs, maybe. It doesn't make sense - getting hit by the ball is failing as a lazy runner because you give away the penalty and risk a card - you may as well just run in from offside and tackle the scrum half.

This.

Lazy runners are trying to interfere without being penalised. You can't do that if you're hit by the ball.
 

Dickie E


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anyway, this is all good fun. If it ever happens in one of my games, I'll let you know what I did.
 

crossref


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Thing is, if something similar happens in one of our games we will benefit from this discussion, and knowing what the key decisions to make are... And hopefully will be less confused than the TMO sounds in this one.
 

damo


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anyway, this is all good fun. If it ever happens in one of my games, I'll let you know what I did.
I'm not too proud to admit that if this happened in one of my games I would almost certainly miss the offside and award the try.

You'd have to be a very fine referee to pick up and process this incident correctly live.
 

Phil E


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Thing is, if something similar happens in one of our games we will benefit from this discussion, and knowing what the key decisions to make are... And hopefully will be less confused than the TMO sounds in this one.

I don't hear the TMO sounding confused at all, not sure where you are getting that from. He clearly outlines what has happened, he is asked for a ruling and then reiterates what he has seen, leaving it to the referee to make the decision. Ref thinks it over for a second and then makes the decision, which the TMO agrees with. Sounds like good communication to me with them both getting to the same decision. If you accept (as they did) that the player didn't intentionally play the ball, then it is also the correct decision.

We miss the Ref and AR talking early on because of the commentators.

Unknown (Ref?): It was a ruck wasn't it?
Unknown (AR?): Yes

TMO: The ball has come backwards from a Lions players head, he hasn't intentionally played at the ball, it's been collected by a Highlanders player who is in front of the Half Back. The grounding is good.

Ref: OK so what's your ruling then mate, is he offside?

TMO: I don't believe he's intentionally played the ball Gus.

Ref: OK so...he's therefore....if he hasn't intentionally played the ball. then the Highlander player is in front of the player, his own player, who last played the ball?

TMO: Yes he is.

Ref: OK so it'd be a no try then and we'de be going back for the err, for the side entry penalty advantage I had?

TMO: Yes you were playing advantage.

Ref: ok allright.
 

Phil E


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I'm not too proud to admit that if this happened in one of my games I would almost certainly miss the offside and award the try.

You'd have to be a very fine referee to pick up and process this incident correctly live.

Totally agree damo.
 

menace


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that's what they call a non sequitur. What makes you think the TMO was fooled regarding the innocence of the retiring player? He simply concluded that the White player didn't intentionally play the ball - irrespective of any other event.

What if the White player had been intentionally onside? Does that mean that the ball hitting him is intentionally playing the ball?

Really??? I was going for sarcasm! I must have missed the mark. Apologies.
 
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