Offside under 10m Law - Where is the place for the PK?

[Bryan]

No "Offside" forum, so putting this here.

A good day in London, but an awarding of a PK piqued my curiosity about how the law is applied.

[LAWS]Law 11.4: Sanction: When a player is penalised for being offside in general play, the opposing team chooses either a penalty kick at the place of infringement or a scrum at the place where the offending team last played the ball. If it was last played in that team’s in-goal, the scrum is formed 5 metres from the goal line in line with where it was played.
[/LAWS]

The above implies that if a player is in front of the kicker and is subsequently penalized, the referee gives one of two options:

1. A scrum where the kicker kicked the ball (i.e. where the ball was last played)
2. A PK where the player is offside

Think about #2. To further downfield (towards the non-offending goal-line) that player is, the further back the PK is for the non-offending team. So if a player ahead on a kick-chase is 10m in front of the offside line across the field as the ball is kicked (in line with the kicker) then the PK is further back for the non-offending team than if the offending player was 1m in front of the offside line when the ball was kicked.

In my case, he was a few metres offside, then never stopped after being yelled at, so I awarded the options (they took the PK at the place where he was offside when the ball was kicked).

How are others applying the law here? It seems to be that the further you are from the offside line, the less of a benefit it is to the non-offending team. Something doesn’t jive here in terms of equity, but it may either be poorly worded or simply poorly applied by yours truly!

 

[Davet]

He first infringed when he failed to either (in case of 10m law) retreat or (in case of standard open play) stop advancing.

So the place of infringement is where that happened.

Yes - if was a long way downfield that is where the kick is from, and I suspect that's why there is an option to have a scrum where the ball was last played.

 

[PaulDG]

If a player is a long way upfield from the kicker, it's likely he was loitering, isn't it?

In which case the PK is from the offside line.

 

[Dixie]

If a player is a long way upfield from the kicker, it's likely he was loitering, isn't it?

In which case the PK is from the offside line.

I think you are assuming a breakdown offside line, but that may not be the case. After a bout of aerial ping pong, several of the less mobile players (I won't use the word "forwards") may be standing in the middle, waiting for it all to end. As long as they stand still, this is legitimate (though the coach may be displeased).

I agree with Davet - surely the possibility that the PK may be a long way from the kick is exactly why the option is offered. The scrum is awarded as close as it can reasonably be to the offenders' goal line.

 

[Lee Lifeson-Peart]

I had one on Saturday where Gold 10 kicked from in goal - it went a long way up and about 15m forward to be caught by Gold 8 who hadn't moved from where he was from the previous lineout about 8 m out. Blue chose the PK where Gold 8 was stood being cursed at by his supportive team mates!!! :biggrin: Now Bryan has raised this I'm not sure where the offence actually is. :wow:

They took a tap and scored out wide on the far side. Had Blue had a better scrum I am thinking that they could have opted for a scrum on the 5m line as kicker had kicked from in goal.

 

[Davet]

Where Gold 8 was offside, ie where he was stood.

Good call.

Scrum would have be on the 5 if they had opted for that.

 

[Dixie]

I had one on Saturday where Gold 10 kicked from in goal - it went a long way up and about 15m forward to be caught by Gold 8 who hadn't moved from where he was from the previous lineout about 8 m out. Blue chose the PK where Gold 8 was stood being cursed at by his supportive team mates!!! :biggrin: Now Bryan has raised this I'm not sure where the offence actually is. :wow:

And that's an excellent point. The law creates an uncertainty by introducing the idea of the 10m area, but the place for the PK is where the player was offside. He was offside where he stood. If he'd been standing 9m back, he'd still have been offside there, but he wasn't standing there. The key thing about the 10m area is not that you're only offside if you are inside the area (a player 15m back from where the ball would land may still be offside), but rather that if you stay in the area and don't retreat, you are considered to be taking part in the game even if stood stock still with your arms in the air. This would not be the case 11m back.

So for me, the location offered was correct - where the player was offside, which is where he was standing.

 

[Phil E]

I always give the PK at the point the offside player starts moving forward, or if within 10m, at the point he fails to retreat, moves sideways (he has to go back), or interferes with play.

Gave one on Saturday when the offside within 10m players was moving back (good), but had still not been put onside.
As the ball carrier ran past him he stuck out an arm, forcing the ball carrier to evade the arm/take a different route.

Ping!

"But Sir, I was retreating".
"Yes you were, but you also interfered with play while still offside".

Just because he is retreating doesn't mean he is flameproof.

 

[Taff]

I can't help thinking that the mark for the PK will eventually get changed. The way the law is worded at the moment, it encourages the offending player to be as offside as possible to get the mark for the PK as far away from his goal line as possible. Eg if the offender is say 9m offside, he's better off than being just 1m offside because the mark for the PK will be 8m further away from the goal posts.

If it was up to me, I would have the PK mark on the 10m offside line or shorter if his team mate is trying to put him onside.

 

[Davet]

But he's offside the moment he moves forward - so if he moves forward to increase his distance from his goalline he is pingable at that point, so he doesn't get further than he is.

 

[Dickie E]

I agree with Davet's #2.

But as Bryan says it does seem inequitous (is that a word?).

For all other offside offences the PK is given where the player should have been (ie the offside line). If I was king I would apply same principle - PK where the kick occurred.

 

[Taff]

He first infringed when he failed to either (in case of 10m law) retreat or (in case of standard open play) stop advancing. So the place of infringement is where that happened. Yes - if was a long way downfield that is where the kick is from, and I suspect that's why there is an option to have a scrum where the ball was last played.

But he's offside the moment he moves forward - so if he moves forward to increase his distance from his goalline he is pingable at that point, so he doesn't get further than he is.

As you said, in the case of the 10m Law standing still (ie not moving forward) isn't an option - he actively needs to move babckwards. My point is (the way the law is currently worded) if the offside player stands where the ball is going to land, assuming there are no onside players putting people onside he's 10m better off than having the mark for that PK on the 10m offside line. Personally I would have the mark on the imaginary 10m line itself or as Dickie puts it "all other offside offences the PK is given where the player should have been (ie the offside line)."

 

[Dixie]

I can't help thinking that the mark for the PK will eventually get changed. The way the law is worded at the moment, it encourages the offending player to be as offside as possible to get the mark for the PK as far away from his goal line as possible. Eg if the offender is say 9m offside, he's better off than being just 1m offside because the mark for the PK will be 8m further away from the goal posts.

If it was up to me, I would have the PK mark on the 10m offside line or shorter if his team mate is trying to put him onside.

it does seem inequitous (is that a word?).

No. The word is "inequitable".

For all other offside offences the PK is given where the player should have been (ie the offside line). If I was king I would apply same principle - PK where the kick occurred.

Or, more precisely, PK at the intersection of the offside line drawn through the kicker parallel to the goal line, and a line drawn through the offside player parallel to the touchline. Surely if the offside player is hugging a touchline, a kick in front of the posts is inequitous?

As you said, in the case of the 10m Law standing still (ie not moving forward) isn't an option - he actively needs to move backwards. My point is if the offside player stands where the ball is going to land, assuming there are no onside players putting people onside he's 10m better off than having the mark for that PK on the 10m offside line.

But Taff, he's offside where he's offside. Imagine a Blue kick at the 22, landing on halfway, with the offside player at the Red 10m line. He's offside. He's also offside at the halfway. He's also offside at the Blue 10m. He's also offside 1m ahead of the 22m line. Why limit it to the Blue 10m line when that is not the limit of the offsideness (is that a word?)? Why not accept Dickie E as your king?

 

[Dickie E]

Why not accept Dickie E as your king?

Thanks Dixie. You can be my queen.

 

[Dixie]

Thanks Dixie. You can be my queen.

You'll also need a valet and everything. Is there a kingston Town in Victoria?

 

[Taff]

... But Taff, he's offside where he's offside.

But you could say the same for an offside player caught on the wrong side (and not retreating) of a maul or ruck offside line. If a player is on the wrong side of the 10m offside line at a LO or the offside line at a scrum, we give the mark on the offside line, not where the offside player was standing. I don't understand why the mark for being offside under the 10m law is different.

 

[OB..]

I agree with Davet's #2.

But as Bryan says it does seem inequitous (is that a word?).

For all other offside offences the PK is given where the player should have been (ie the offside line). If I was king I would apply same principle - PK where the kick occurred.

But you could say the same for an offside player caught on the wrong side (and not retreating) of a maul or ruck offside line. If a player is on the wrong side of the 10m offside line at a LO or the offside line at a scrum, we give the mark on the offside line, not where the offside player was standing. I don't understand why the mark for being offside under the 10m law is different.

I agree.

 

[Dickie E]

I agree.

so do I.

 

[Davet]

Quite - but it's just that what the Law says is different, and that's what we have to apply - whether we like it or not.

Though there is nothing stopping any one us seeking election to the iRB via the channels that exist, and working for change.

 

[Taff]

Quite - but it's just that what the Law says is different, and that's what we have to apply - whether we like it or not.

Agreed Davet, which is why I said

I can't help thinking that the mark for the PK will eventually get changed.

It makes sense to have sanctions being as consistent as possible, especially when an inconsitency favours the offending team.