One that got away

Dave Sherwin


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Interesting (and appreciated) feedback from many quarters, with a mix of those who think a rigorously enforced clampdown is to be lauded to those who are concerned about painting referees into a corner - a good debate and one I have been sharing with my colleagues in the lead-up to the meeting today. I think the overriding concern is that new referees are being put off coming into the game because they see experienced referees with excellent law knowledge and good domestic and international credentials being questioned to death, and are concerned as to whether that is a situation that they, armed with less robust law knowledge and less experience, are willing to put themselves into. We have no "lower leagues" where a ref might earn his crust - they would be straight into the mix where every team contains a real mix of players. For example, one team has an ex Henley professional second row, an ex Army Rugby captain at tighthead, an ex Fiji Sevens national player (admittedly now 43!) in the backline and an ex Queensland Country scrum half, all in the same team as a dolphin trainer who took up the sport six weeks ago! I agree, by the way, with those who think the policy too prescriptive, but the concern is to protect newer, less experienced refs from chat that an older hand might treat like water off a duck's back. Anyway, hopefully the meeting today will result in the policy NOT having to be enforced, but it's threat being enough to provoke a unified agreement from the clubs to self-regulate. We shall see!
 

Womble

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Interesting thread, As DOR at our club, the players have been told not to question any referee decision ! I ask the referees after the game if the players spoke to them, if they did they got dropped. It took us as a club 2 weeks to stop it. The upshot of it, 25% reduction in penalty count against us :pepper:. It could be good coaching of the laws to the players but IMO not talking to sir has taken a lot of pressure off of Sir and I Quote " what a pleasure your team is to referee "
 

Dave Sherwin


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That, Womble, is the key - getting the clubs to understand that there will likely be a substantial reduction in penalty count, not least because if they're not shouting at us during open play we can communicate better our requirements for [Blue [X] roll away] etc. Watched the Varsity match on playback today (ex-Oxford boy, I'm afraid), and was fascinated by how Luke basically never needed to raise his voice to request movement of players etc., release etc. because there appeared to be effectively no chat - rather different from how he sometimes has to be in Premiership matches. Result was a much more compliant and flowing game, notwithstanding the lower skill levels.
 

thepercy


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Initial Draft reads:VERBAL DISCIPLINE

Dear All,
Following recent events, all of the members of the Cayman Islands Rugby Union Referees Society have discussed the issue of verbal discipline by players of the Cayman Rugby Football Union.
It has been noted that there has been a marked change for the worse in the behaviour or a number of players who appear to have brought a football-style approach to their dealings with the referee. Whilst not universal, there appears to be an increasingly common trend to appeal, comment and advise (these terms are used loosely) during open play and, upon the giving of a penalty or free-kick decision, an expectation that the referee should justify his decision in order to mollify an apparently outraged offending team.
Players (and coaches) in the Cayman Islands might choose to consider that the standard of refereeing in Cayman is exceptionally high compared with any other Caribbean country, with a majority of local referees having been involved in international fixtures. Just as the players in the Cayman Islands make a greater number of errors than elite international players, it is to be expected that referees will, despite their best efforts, make a greater number of errors than World Rugby's elite panel.
There is no doubt that the regularity with which the same players see the same referee in Cayman creates a difficult dynamic, but there is a strong feeling among the referees that there has been an unreasonable depreciation in the level of respect shown to referees who are, after all, volunteers doing their best and with zero vested interests.
Accordingly, all members of the Cayman Islands Rugby Union Referees Society have agreed to adopt the following zero-tolerance policies for all remaining matches of the AA Cup. Whether the policies can be subsequently relaxed to a more "normal" standard will likely depend on the impact that such policies have on the current unfortunate trends.


  1. The first incidence by each team of advice, dissent, expression of disapproval or backchat, however instinctive, minor or apparently trivial, will be met with either a free kick or a penalty depending on severity (or advantage played for a free kick/penalty, with a word to the captain and relevant player afterwards if advantage is gained, making clear that this is the "first strike").
NOTE: If the incident occurs after the giving of a penalty / free kick, the penalty / free kick will be advanced 10 metres and this will count as the "first strike".

  1. The second such incidence will result in a full penalty regardless of the severity (or advantage played for a penalty, with a word to the captain and relevant player afterwards if advantage is gained, making clear that this is the "second strike").
NOTE: If the incident occurs after the giving of a penalty / free kick, the penalty / free kick will be advanced 10 metres and converted into a full penalty, where applicable, and this will count as the "second strike".

  1. Thereafter, each incident (again, however instinctive, minor or apparently trivial) will result in a full penalty (or advantage, as above) and a yellow card.
NOTE: Even where advantage is gained, a yellow card will be issued.
NOTE: If the incident occurs after the giving of a penalty / free kick, the penalty / free kick will be advanced 10 metres and converted into a full penalty, where applicable, and a yellow card will also be issued.
Teams should also expect any penalty or free kick which they may have received to be reversed if, prior to, at the time of or following the relevant offence, they either appeal, complain or advise the referee.
The referees do regret that this is likely to result in an increased number of free kicks, penalties and yellow cards whilst players adjust to these policies and such an approach is not adopted lightly, but the society is already short on numbers and cannot risk losing members through disaffection with the behaviour of players.
It should also be noted that we have a number of "specialist" assistant referees who give up their time to patrol the touch lines. Abuse, however instinctive, minor or apparently trivial, of assistant referees is also not acceptable and, where fed back to the referee, will result in the same sanctions.
Finally, we would also ask that management teams take care regarding their behaviour. We fully understand that management teams are passionate in their support of their team, will be frustrated by some decisions and do not interact directly with the referee. Thus, whilst the same strict standards will not (and cannot reasonably) be applied, we would ask management teams to consider carefully their approach in light of the foregoing.
Finally, we set out a non-exhaustive list of some examples of "advice" that might be considered too trivial to be captured by these policies but which we wish to make clear ARE caught and are not acceptable, at least for the duration of this zero-tolerance period:

"Knock on sir!"
"Offside!"
"Hands on!"
"Oh sir!"
"Holding!"
"He's got to release!"
"Not straight!"
"He's got to roll away!"
"Forward!"
"High tackle sir!"


CAYMAN RUGBY UNION REFEREES SOCIETY

You may want to add that steps can be skipped if/when the abuse warrants it
 

ChrisR

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Horowitz has a track record of referee abuse. In his first season, he served a suspension and was put on a year-long probation. In October he was cited in back-to-back games.

The above is an extract from the following article:

www.rugbytoday.com/college/oklahoma-coaching-situation-murky

There can be consequences for abusive behavior, even for a successful coach.

Anyone want to hazard a guess as which of those three is Horowitz?
 
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RobLev

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Horowitz has a track record of referee abuse. In his first season, he served a suspension and was put on a year-long probation. In October he was cited in back-to-back games.

The above is an extract from the following article:

www.rugbytoday.com/college/oklahoma-coaching-situation-murky

There can be consequences for abusive behavior, even for a successful coach.

Anyone want to hazard a guess as which of those three is Horowitz?

The thug in the middle?
 

SimonSmith


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This is in the general Union area. There is a second side to he story that isn't apparent yet.

Can I suggest that if we're going to label any one a thug who was cleared of the last two charges, we do it in the protected areas of the forum?
 

Browner

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I think the overriding concern is that new referees are being put off coming into the game because they see experienced referees with excellent law knowledge and good domestic and international credentials being questioned to death, and are concerned as to whether that is a situation that they, armed with less robust law knowledge and less experience, are willing to put themselves into.

We have no "lower leagues" where a ref might earn his crust - they would be straight into the mix where every team contains a real mix of players. For example, one team has an ex Henley professional second row, an ex Army Rugby captain at tighthead, an ex Fiji Sevens national player (admittedly now 43!) in the backline and an ex Queensland Country scrum half, all in the same team as a dolphin trainer who took up the sport six weeks ago!

Against that eclectic mix of 'ref questioning' experience I can see why it could prove unattractive to sign up for the whistle.
The reality is, in your match, a straw broke the camels back ! The players demand for an apology ( dont you dare! Lol ) has brought the subject to a head.

The RC player won't likely care about the ' bigger picture' on recruitment/retention, nor might an individual club/official, but a collective meeting should get the message across .....Wombles story proves that players can adapt, given the right 'incentives' and leadership !
 

Browner

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Horowitz has a track record of referee abuse. In his first season, he served a suspension and was put on a year-long probation. In October he was cited in back-to-back games.

The above is an extract from the following article:

www.rugbytoday.com/college/oklahoma-coaching-situation-murky

There can be consequences for abusive behavior, even for a successful coach.

Anyone want to hazard a guess as which of those three is Horowitz?

Only two days later ....
http://www.rugbytoday.com/college/oklahoma-names-new-coach

We were very proud when Doug received notoriety from Rugby Magazine as delivering the biggest hit of match in the US' 38-0 victory over Holland in 1987.”
. Yep, that would make me misty eyed as well ....:cry:
 

RobLev

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This is in the general Union area. There is a second side to he story that isn't apparent yet.

Can I suggest that if we're going to label any one a thug who was cleared of the last two charges, we do it in the protected areas of the forum?

If a mod wants to delete, then fine; but I was describing the looks of the man, not his alleged actions.
 
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