One that got away

[Dave Sherwin]

So, for the first time in about three years, I had "one of those games", where no matter what management tools I brought to bear, the game just slowly (or at times rapidly) spiraled out of control. I would have gone home desolate, but for the fact that (unusually) I was doing two games back to back and the second was a fantastic, fast, flowing match played in excellent spirit and with high skill levels. The first, though, was dire. Both teams, despite the usual PMB, just seemed intent on providing the infuriating constant "advice / commentary" to the referee, with all decisions seemingly up for debate. After 11 minutes I advanced a "feeding" free kick following green scrum half's OTT verbal response. After 19 minutes, I stopped play to penalise green No. 8 for shouting "for Fxck's sake ref, he's in the fxcking side" and issued him and his captain a team warning. On 29 minutes (when green had just scored and the decision had attracted strong verbal opprobrium including profanities from unidentified players), I called both captains together in the centre spot for a long talk. For once (both knowingly and intentionally) I backed myself into a corner and informed both captains that the next piece of advice, of whatsoever nature would result in a penalty and a yellow card. I noted that whilst playing discipline had generally been good (5 penalties in total), verbal discipline had been appalling and I simply was not willing to continue in that vein. Both captains were given fully 90 seconds to convey this to all players. From the kick-off, a knock-on and a scrum. As the front rows assemble, the red loosehead starts telling me that green tighthead is always binding early. I smile and say, "Come on, what have we just talked about?". "I know, sir, but he's been at it all day and twisting in...". I blow time off, call the captain and award a yellow. Never in a million years would I normally give a yellow for that level of banter, but the total disorder of the previous half-hour left me feeling that I honestly had no choice but to show I was not willing to continue with the non-stop chat from both side. As I produce the yellow, red loosehead then says, "Oh go on then, ref, why don't you just give me a red?". I obliged. This morning, I discover that the player is requesting that both cards be rescinded and that I issue a written apology as these are the first cards he has received in his 17-year playing career. I am dumbfounded. Anyone else ever been asked to apologise after issuing a card?

 

[Dave Sherwin]

Apologies for the block text - seems my "Enter" button isn't functioning!

 

[The umpire]

No, but I have had just as mouthy teams. I know it's no consolation now (mine was almost as bad, but it stopped before we got to cards (the game, that is), however on my next visit to them, the PMB finished with a very straight forward, "No advice, no calling, no nothing, first time it's a warning, then I'll penalise, 3 penalties and it's a yellow card, everyone got that? Good!"
First scrum and the front row 'enquired' about someones's binding "right, that's your warning" after that the only sounds you could hear were teammates telling each other to shut up and being pulled away from potential flash points. It was wonderful :smile:
Now, if it gets bad in a game, its time off, similar speech and then wait for the response.
So, stick to your guns, you gave them plenty of warning and suffered backchat after the YC so it was upgraded to red - what else could you reasonably be expected to do if you were keep order.

 

[WombleRef]

Ouch! I have experienced similar games, and I know how horrible it feels afterwards when you have had such a game. See it as a good reminder into backing yourself into the corner.

Sometimes the Yellow works. I did a Level 9 game earlier in the season where the Home side where mouthing off quite a bit in the first ten minutes. I warned the captain that if such behaviour continued I may have to escalate. Within 30 seconds of such a warning - a player had mouthed off about a decision. Off he went. I did not have a single bit of trouble for the rest of the game.

See it as a positive in that you actually stuck to your guns and when pushed (even for something minor) you used them. I would have probably 'escalated' sooner than you had, but then at the age of 18 I find you sometimes need to stamp your authority a little.

If anyone forces you to make an apology I would be astounded, and if I was told by my society to make an apology I would be hanging up the whistle and going back to playing.

 

[Dave Sherwin]

Interestingly, I don't regret backing myself into a corner on this one. I am well aware (and have long practiced) avoiding doing so, but one of the downsides of refereeing on a relatively limited circuit in the Caribbean is that people get to know your style pretty quickly. On this occasion, I wanted to make it quite clear to the players (many of whom I know personally) that this was not a gentle piece of management but a genuine statement of intent. I agree re the apology by the way. I am quite clear in my own mind that if either card is rescinded or an apology is requested by the disciplinary panel then there will be no further domestic refereeing for me.

 

[SimonSmith]

Good for you.

Teams around here don't give me mouth. I've worked very very hard to develop a reputation in that arena

 

[Nigib]

Dave, we all have days like these. You did what you said you would, and you should be supported by your Society.
From what you report, I would have YC the Green 8 @ 19 minutes rather than issue a warning - reasoning that he had sworn at me.

 

[Lee Lifeson-Peart]

..one of the downsides of refereeing on a relatively limited circuit in the Caribbean..

Ho ho let's see the rest of that huge list!

 

[FlipFlop]

As someone from a country where we have similar problems:

After 11 minutes I advanced a "feeding" free kick following green scrum half's OTT verbal response.

For me - this is a PK, not advancing a FK. The new offence is a PK offence. It sends a much stronger message.

After 19 minutes, I stopped play to penalise green No. 8 for shouting "for Fxck's sake ref, he's in the fxcking side" and issued him and his captain a team warning.

For me - this is a straight card. (yellow probably - but depends on tone). And a warning to the Captain to sort it out. Again - the message is stronger, and shows no tolerance. My warning to captains at this point normally involves the message - there is only 1 ref on a field, and it is me.

On 29 minutes (when green had just scored and the decision had attracted strong verbal opprobrium including profanities from unidentified players), I called both captains together in the centre spot for a long talk. For once (both knowingly and intentionally) I backed myself into a corner and informed both captains that the next piece of advice, of whatsoever nature would result in a penalty and a yellow card. I noted that whilst playing discipline had generally been good (5 penalties in total), verbal discipline had been appalling and I simply was not willing to continue in that vein. Both captains were given fully 90 seconds to convey this to all players.

By now I would have warned Green (see above) so only need to warn red here. And words of - I've already show cards for dissent, you need to control your players or my options will be limited - are the sort of thing I would use. Backing yourself into a corner is never advisable. Use those key phrases - reduced options, you control it or I will take further action etc.

From the kick-off, a knock-on and a scrum. As the front rows assemble, the red loosehead starts telling me that green tighthead is always binding early. I smile and say, "Come on, what have we just talked about?". "I know, sir, but he's been at it all day and twisting in...". I blow time off, call the captain and award a yellow. Never in a million years would I normally give a yellow for that level of banter, but the total disorder of the previous half-hour left me feeling that I honestly had no choice but to show I was not willing to continue with the non-stop chat from both side.

The reason you had to - is you back yourself into a corner. If you hadn't of done that, you could have got out of this one. But was this really dissent? Could you have just said - "through your captain please" - and got on with the scrum.

As I produce the yellow, red loosehead then says, "Oh go on then, ref, why don't you just give me a red?". I obliged.

I'm with you here - any player who asks for a red - gets one. By asking they are showing no respect to the referee, and they are already on thin ice given the Yellow card situation.

This morning, I discover that the player is requesting that both cards be rescinded and that I issue a written apology as these are the first cards he has received in his 17-year playing career. I am dumbfounded. Anyone else ever been asked to apologise after issuing a card?

Any request for an apology, or similar,. will be met with a refusal to referee again. And first cards in 17 years is not an excuse, or reason for it. His team were warned, he failed to comply, he got a Yellow card. He continued and got a red. Fairly simple I would have thought.

But personally - think you let too much go, without strong action, so when you tried to reel it in, you had to go hard. The player got the result of this. If you had given the PK (rather than FK) and Yellow card earlier, then would this have happened? And think you could have managed the incident better - it doesn't sound like dissent. I guess the match/players had got under your skin....

 

[Stanc]

I think it a trend that is fast becomming more common in the game, I was involved in an Army charity 7s comp, PMB given to all players and coaches as what was expceted durnig games, 1st games starts and almost as soon as i blew the wistle i was receiving an earfull from one of the captains,
I then reminded him of what i had told him in the PMB and his words to me were sorry sir, the rest of the 1st half went ok with some good skills and alot of fun was had by both sides.

2nd half the same captain started to give me an earfull which led to a yellow for decent. the next two games were great games with all sides enjoynig the games.

it then came to the side with the gobby captian on it again, and yet again as soon as the games started he started. i called time off and reminded him of what had happened in his last game and he again said his sorrys and contiuned to play. this was good for about two mins of the 1st half and then he started again after a tackle which he thinks was high and i said was fine as it was across the chest. he continued the earbashing and yet again i produced a yellow for him,

this time on his way to the bin my AR grabbed my attention and informed me that he told him that after the games he was going to kick the living s*&t out of me well i was left with no choice but to turn the yellow in to a red and send him packing, a week later i recived a letter from my commanding officer saying i was to recind the rred card as it was unjustified and that the player was needed in a 15s game that week,

i never recinded the card and the player has since lost his place in the regts side after my full report was given to my CO

 

[OB..]

a week later i recived a letter from my commanding officer saying i was to recind the rred card

However by then your report would have been sent in, so how would that even be possible? Or do the Army do things differently?

which led to a yellow for decent.

Obviously you would have given red for indecent :biggrin:

 

[Taffy]

One of the most important lessons I quickly learnt through is forum was to take no prisoners early. Start hard and then work backwards. This was linked with my slowly dawning realisation that there are refs that take this stuff week in and week out. I was surprised and yes, my best games have always been when I put a lid on it straight away. I haven't always got it right, but do know that I am respected in that area.

It it is difficult in practice when there are seemingly 100's of unidentified voices and then the coach starts butting in and then the side that stopped start up again and the crowd are moaning because you have stopped the game AGAIN!

Things I picked up from other refs match briefs that I often use are

"I'm quite happy to explain a decision to you (the captain) but I'm not up for debate about it"

"If anyone feels they would like to referee the game today, please let me know as I have application forms in my bag and we are desperately short of refs at the moment"

"Yours is the only voice I want to hear, so if you've got a gobby scrum half (pause as this always gets a laugh) then please have a word with him now"

I refereed a match yesterday, prematch brief as normal. No problems at all, not a word until a penalty 15 minutes in awarded in the 22 of black. Black fly half says "ref, didn't you see him coming in the side". I march them 10 yards, pause, make it absolutely clear what it was for.

Silence. Absolute heavenly silence all the rest of the game. Not a peep, quite scary really and I heard from two spectators afterwards "what a great match". Now I realise that I am more an affirmation junkie that most people but isn't that great and what you want to hear as a ref?

Powerful stuff if you get it right!

 

[Stanc]

However by then your report would have been sent in, so how would that even be possible? Or do the Army do things differently?
We do things the same way as the rest of you do i guess, any red card offence the report has to be submitted within 24hrs of the incident, another reason why the card was not recinded, even if i could have done it i would'nt have done so.
Obviously you would have given red for indecent :biggrin:

The team of officials were asked to try and not give out reds if possible as it was a charity event and the organisers didnt want it spoilt with reds, hence just the yellow.

 

[Lee Lifeson-Peart]

The team of officials were asked to try and not give out reds if possible as it was a charity event and the organisers didnt want it spoilt with reds, hence just the yellow.

I refereed a charity game pre-season. As above. Never again.

 

[Browner]

Dave
Youre an experienced referee, and the expression " familiarity breeds contempt" exists for a reason !

Don't beat yourself up, when players don't adjust/modify or change behaviour what is the referee supposed to do other than escalate?????!?
I hope your discipline system backs you, shame on them if they don't, the rarity of this ( i assume you've no history of carditus) should tell them all they need to know.

Im often heard to ask " captain, ive given my decision, is your player now dissenting my decision?".... ... Or " captain, one of us is going to quell this from your players, it's either going to you or me, if you cant then I will, is that clear?"

its a clear warning of how I see players badgering me. But sometimes they simply won't listen, especially the characters who can't stop.

TBH the red sounds like a reaction, perhaps "captain, if your player persists with this tone player then it will become red" mightve given the capt a chance to reign in Mr Opinionated.

My theme, is every time through the capt, he owns his players discipline and the sanctions they get are answerable to him.

Don't let it trouble you any further.

 

[Browner]

The team of officials were asked to try and not give out reds if possible as it was a charity event and the organisers didnt want it spoilt with reds, hence just the yellow.

The team of officials should counter by asking the organisers what the preferred method of maintaining match discipline was? ...... Maybe Waterboarding at half time???!!!?

 

[Stanc]

The team of officials should counter by asking the organisers what the preferred method of maintaining match discipline was? ...... Maybe Waterboarding at half time???!!!?

they were hoping that the discipline would be kept at a high standard as the players were all soliders and were ordered before the game to behave, this didnt happen.

maybe next time i will use the waterboarding method... i can't say that i will not do any more charity events as i know there will be more in the near future and i will have to do them. its hard to say no to a game when you are as captive as we are..

 

[Dave Sherwin]

TBH the red sounds like a reaction.

Yup - it was, and I have definitely re-thought the incident and would have dealt with it more calmly in an ideal world, but I am pretty settled I would still have given the red. It's been many years since I have felt flustered refereeing, but I did on that day. Just goes to show that you never have it cracked!

 

[Browner]

they were hoping that the discipline would be kept at a high standard as the players were all soliders and were ordered before the game to behave, this didnt happen.

.

" Hope", is indeed a basis for discipline that I think the military discarded in ....c 2000 years BC !

& the penalty for ignoring an "order" is ..........???!!!? Surely it trumps ignoring mere law .....

 

[crossref]

they were hoping that the discipline would be kept at a high standard as the players were all soliders and were ordered before the game to behave, this didnt happen.

maybe next time i will use the waterboarding method... i can't say that i will not do any more charity events as i know there will be more in the near future and i will have to do them. its hard to say no to a game when you are as captive as we are..

charity events, fun events, fat-boys events -- these can all be a nightmare.
I reffed a fun 7s last May and in my last game I had a player who was very large, very drunk and behaving like a complete d*ck (eg an attempted late off-the-ball shoulder charge (which missed, luckily).

I knew I needed to get him off the pitch, as much for his own safety as for others. His captain wasn't initially much help... I was thinking 'am I going to have to RC him ??????' Abandon the game ???? .. In the end I managed to 'coax' him off for a brief rest and once he had sat down he fell asleep so problem over. But it's tricky.