One that got away

Adam


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Instead of awarding the yellow, could you not have timed off and spoken to the captain with the player present.

Captain, your player may have a perfectly valid point. However you have just agreed to sort this, and future options are becoming even more limited.

Or something like "he's starting to look a bit yellow to me".

Or as the one of the earlier team warnings, "it's distracting us from getting on with the game". This would depersonalise it.

Or you could try something funny. I've used "alright mate you've been on for 2 minutes and already said more than my missus" to good effect in the past.

EDIT: I now brief about this to the captains as follows:

We've been asked to cut out backchat and appealing during the game. I'm looking to you to keep your lads under control.

Then you can add it in to the captain during the game, "captain remember what we said before the game, deal with it please". Accompany this with apologetic body language.
 
Last edited:

Dave Sherwin


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I think it is fair to say that there are all sorts of things I COULD have done - and most of them are in my toolbox and used when necessary. As Browner has said, though, I think our issue is familiarity breeding contempt. Sitting down with the union today to discuss the issue of respect generally as we definitely have a broader issue developing.
 

Browner

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I think our issue is familiarity breeding contempt.

Sitting down with the union today to discuss the issue of respect generally as we definitely have a broader issue developing.

In a philosophical float .........

Those that espoused the view that perpetual discussion with players must prevail over 'dissent' sanctioning as a better game management option created the TEoTWedge that eventually concludes with everyone arguing about everything in a dystopian fixture, or .... Pre 1871 !

Let us know what the action plan looks like Dave.
 

Dave Sherwin


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Initial Draft reads:VERBAL DISCIPLINE

Dear All,
Following recent events, all of the members of the Cayman Islands Rugby Union Referees Society have discussed the issue of verbal discipline by players of the Cayman Rugby Football Union.
It has been noted that there has been a marked change for the worse in the behaviour or a number of players who appear to have brought a football-style approach to their dealings with the referee. Whilst not universal, there appears to be an increasingly common trend to appeal, comment and advise (these terms are used loosely) during open play and, upon the giving of a penalty or free-kick decision, an expectation that the referee should justify his decision in order to mollify an apparently outraged offending team.
Players (and coaches) in the Cayman Islands might choose to consider that the standard of refereeing in Cayman is exceptionally high compared with any other Caribbean country, with a majority of local referees having been involved in international fixtures. Just as the players in the Cayman Islands make a greater number of errors than elite international players, it is to be expected that referees will, despite their best efforts, make a greater number of errors than World Rugby's elite panel.
There is no doubt that the regularity with which the same players see the same referee in Cayman creates a difficult dynamic, but there is a strong feeling among the referees that there has been an unreasonable depreciation in the level of respect shown to referees who are, after all, volunteers doing their best and with zero vested interests.
Accordingly, all members of the Cayman Islands Rugby Union Referees Society have agreed to adopt the following zero-tolerance policies for all remaining matches of the AA Cup. Whether the policies can be subsequently relaxed to a more "normal" standard will likely depend on the impact that such policies have on the current unfortunate trends.


  1. The first incidence by each team of advice, dissent, expression of disapproval or backchat, however instinctive, minor or apparently trivial, will be met with either a free kick or a penalty depending on severity (or advantage played for a free kick/penalty, with a word to the captain and relevant player afterwards if advantage is gained, making clear that this is the "first strike").
NOTE: If the incident occurs after the giving of a penalty / free kick, the penalty / free kick will be advanced 10 metres and this will count as the "first strike".

  1. The second such incidence will result in a full penalty regardless of the severity (or advantage played for a penalty, with a word to the captain and relevant player afterwards if advantage is gained, making clear that this is the "second strike").
NOTE: If the incident occurs after the giving of a penalty / free kick, the penalty / free kick will be advanced 10 metres and converted into a full penalty, where applicable, and this will count as the "second strike".

  1. Thereafter, each incident (again, however instinctive, minor or apparently trivial) will result in a full penalty (or advantage, as above) and a yellow card.
NOTE: Even where advantage is gained, a yellow card will be issued.
NOTE: If the incident occurs after the giving of a penalty / free kick, the penalty / free kick will be advanced 10 metres and converted into a full penalty, where applicable, and a yellow card will also be issued.
Teams should also expect any penalty or free kick which they may have received to be reversed if, prior to, at the time of or following the relevant offence, they either appeal, complain or advise the referee.
The referees do regret that this is likely to result in an increased number of free kicks, penalties and yellow cards whilst players adjust to these policies and such an approach is not adopted lightly, but the society is already short on numbers and cannot risk losing members through disaffection with the behaviour of players.
It should also be noted that we have a number of "specialist" assistant referees who give up their time to patrol the touch lines. Abuse, however instinctive, minor or apparently trivial, of assistant referees is also not acceptable and, where fed back to the referee, will result in the same sanctions.
Finally, we would also ask that management teams take care regarding their behaviour. We fully understand that management teams are passionate in their support of their team, will be frustrated by some decisions and do not interact directly with the referee. Thus, whilst the same strict standards will not (and cannot reasonably) be applied, we would ask management teams to consider carefully their approach in light of the foregoing.
Finally, we set out a non-exhaustive list of some examples of "advice" that might be considered too trivial to be captured by these policies but which we wish to make clear ARE caught and are not acceptable, at least for the duration of this zero-tolerance period:

"Knock on sir!"
"Offside!"
"Hands on!"
"Oh sir!"
"Holding!"
"He's got to release!"
"Not straight!"
"He's got to roll away!"
"Forward!"
"High tackle sir!"


CAYMAN RUGBY UNION REFEREES SOCIETY
 

WombleRef


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A yellow card every time after the third strike might not be so fun.

That could easily end up with 5 or 6 yellows in the first half in some games!

Either way - I can perfectly understand why you feel that needs to be done.
 

Dave Sherwin


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I fear it could, but at the society meeting there was a feeling that a complete change of attitude was required and this might be the only way to achieve it. The advantage of a small union is we can be pretty certain every coach and player will have had the opportunity to read and so will have no excuses.
 

Stuartg


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Initial Draft reads:VERBAL DISCIPLINE

Dear All,
Following recent events, all of the members of the Cayman Islands Rugby Union Referees Society have discussed the issue of verbal discipline by players of the Cayman Rugby Football Union.
It has been noted that there has been a marked change for the worse in the behaviour or a number of players who appear to have brought a football-style approach to their dealings with the referee. Whilst not universal, there appears to be an increasingly common trend to appeal, comment and advise (these terms are used loosely) during open play and, upon the giving of a penalty or free-kick decision, an expectation that the referee should justify his decision in order to mollify an apparently outraged offending team.
Players (and coaches) in the Cayman Islands might choose to consider that the standard of refereeing in Cayman is exceptionally high compared with any other Caribbean country, with a majority of local referees having been involved in international fixtures. Just as the players in the Cayman Islands make a greater number of errors than elite international players, it is to be expected that referees will, despite their best efforts, make a greater number of errors than World Rugby's elite panel.
There is no doubt that the regularity with which the same players see the same referee in Cayman creates a difficult dynamic, but there is a strong feeling among the referees that there has been an unreasonable depreciation in the level of respect shown to referees who are, after all, volunteers doing their best and with zero vested interests.
Accordingly, all members of the Cayman Islands Rugby Union Referees Society have agreed to adopt the following zero-tolerance policies for all remaining matches of the AA Cup. Whether the policies can be subsequently relaxed to a more "normal" standard will likely depend on the impact that such policies have on the current unfortunate trends.


  1. The first incidence by each team of advice, dissent, expression of disapproval or backchat, however instinctive, minor or apparently trivial, will be met with either a free kick or a penalty depending on severity (or advantage played for a free kick/penalty, with a word to the captain and relevant player afterwards if advantage is gained, making clear that this is the "first strike").
NOTE: If the incident occurs after the giving of a penalty / free kick, the penalty / free kick will be advanced 10 metres and this will count as the "first strike".

  1. The second such incidence will result in a full penalty regardless of the severity (or advantage played for a penalty, with a word to the captain and relevant player afterwards if advantage is gained, making clear that this is the "second strike").
NOTE: If the incident occurs after the giving of a penalty / free kick, the penalty / free kick will be advanced 10 metres and converted into a full penalty, where applicable, and this will count as the "second strike".

  1. Thereafter, each incident (again, however instinctive, minor or apparently trivial) will result in a full penalty (or advantage, as above) and a yellow card.
NOTE: Even where advantage is gained, a yellow card will be issued.
NOTE: If the incident occurs after the giving of a penalty / free kick, the penalty / free kick will be advanced 10 metres and converted into a full penalty, where applicable, and a yellow card will also be issued.
Teams should also expect any penalty or free kick which they may have received to be reversed if, prior to, at the time of or following the relevant offence, they either appeal, complain or advise the referee.
The referees do regret that this is likely to result in an increased number of free kicks, penalties and yellow cards whilst players adjust to these policies and such an approach is not adopted lightly, but the society is already short on numbers and cannot risk losing members through disaffection with the behaviour of players.
It should also be noted that we have a number of "specialist" assistant referees who give up their time to patrol the touch lines. Abuse, however instinctive, minor or apparently trivial, of assistant referees is also not acceptable and, where fed back to the referee, will result in the same sanctions.
Finally, we would also ask that management teams take care regarding their behaviour. We fully understand that management teams are passionate in their support of their team, will be frustrated by some decisions and do not interact directly with the referee. Thus, whilst the same strict standards will not (and cannot reasonably) be applied, we would ask management teams to consider carefully their approach in light of the foregoing.
Finally, we set out a non-exhaustive list of some examples of "advice" that might be considered too trivial to be captured by these policies but which we wish to make clear ARE caught and are not acceptable, at least for the duration of this zero-tolerance period:

"Knock on sir!"
"Offside!"
"Hands on!"
"Oh sir!"
"Holding!"
"He's got to release!"
"Not straight!"
"He's got to roll away!"
"Forward!"
"High tackle sir!"


CAYMAN RUGBY UNION REFEREES SOCIETY

Go for it! Spot on. It's this sort of player behavioyr which makes the retention of new referees so difficult. You have to be a real thick skinned b?gger to put up with it long enough to get some sort of grip. Please keep us updated on reactions and progress.
 

ChrisR

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For this to work as you would like it to it will require the buy-in of the clubs and captains. They need to see that they'll get a better game out of it with better refereeing.

What steps are you taking to get input from the clubs and captains?
 

Dave Sherwin


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We have a break in the season now until early January (so many of the expats here go home over Christmas etc.). Over the break, the above document will be finalized and circulated to all coaches. I would suspect the majority will have no issues, so long as they feel that the policies will be implemented consistently. We'll also probably hold a meeting shortly before matches re-start with captains and management teams giving the option to discuss the approach. To be honest, I don't expect much opposition from the coaches / captains as they are often the ones with rugby values at their core. It's some of their rabble who are the issue!
 

SimonSmith


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You alone will know the state of the mountain you're facing. I applaud the sentiment, but I do wonder about the mechanism here.

You're not giving your referees any wiggle room on management here. We all know the difference between the instinctive not-an-appeal "knock on!" and the one designed to make the referee's life difficult.

Could you amend it? Seek collaboration, invoke the spirit of rugby? Tell them that these are standards that a referee MAY apply if he/she sees necessary, but equally may apply with generosity depending on the overall approach of the teams on the day?

Serial offending by a particular club may lead to further off field sanctions.

I delivered that message to one College co-ordinator over a beer. Like flipping a light switch. Now I get calls about how they can make the referee experience better.
 

Browner

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It certainly lays out the expectations and consequences of non compliance and you guys have the best feel for the recipient audiences acceptance.

There will be a period of 'casualties' and the biggest problem will be changing the behaviours of players that have become automatic responses. Its a laudable objective and I ( along with many I guess) wish you luck and a safe ride albeit maybe along an initial rocky road. If you can ride out any derailing attempts, then the prize could be very worthwhile.

I wish you well, Hi5 to the CIRSoc...

We await the feedback.
 

FlipFlop


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I do think that it is a harsh policy. And even question if it is workable.

I would suggest that it is softened a bit, but that the Disciplinary Committee also add that any club who has more than a certain number of cards (any colour) for dissent under this policy, will face further sanctions.

So soften it a bit on the field, but toughen up the stance off the field as well.

But the good news it - I guess the Society are not expecting you to write an apology!
 

Lee Lifeson-Peart


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I think, like Simon Smith and FF, that it is very prescriptive and I wonder if the RS could not collectively agree that they would deal with dissent in a "consistent" manner (easier given there are not many of you?) and let the DC deal with the fall out.

I appreciate the draft proposals make for consistency but it does rather smack of refereeing by numbers.

I hope it gives you the outcome you desire.

I'd be interested to read the feedback.
 

Dave Sherwin


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Refs sitting down with the union tomorrow. Think the decision has been made that the Union will have a chance to speak to the teams, coaches and captains first, with the clear indication that the referees will look to introduce the protocols if there is not a marked improvement. Quite happy with the solution - sort of good game management but on a macro scale!
 

Browner

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Whilst not directly related to the OP, challenging the referees critical decision is being trialled

Kaplan says
In essence the white card will allow the captains of a team to question referee inaccuracy when points are scored and thus help the credibility of not only the officials who are constantly under the pump, but the credibility of the game as a whole. Each captain will have 1 challenge per half. If he uses it frivolously, he loses it. If he wins the challenge, he can use it again and again.

What this will do is cater for a greater degree of accuracy on the part of officials, and will be an inclusive management tool which will make the players feel as if they are part of the decision making ( around points scoring ). It will also have the effect of eradicating officials who are not up to it. If referees keep getting it wrong, they will no longer be used in time. Poor performances will become glaringly obvious, and the public will feel a lot closer to the game. I think it may even have the effect of allowing the public to understand the game better, and perhaps not moan so much on post match forums!

http://ratetheref.co.za/2014/12/04/kaplans-comments-the-white-card/
 

Dave Sherwin


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Blimey - so even MORE use of the TMO. Brian Moore WILL be happy.
 

Phil E


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Dave

The only comment I would make is that, as referees, we are always talking about not painting ourselves into a corner.
Your proposed document seems to do just that.
If the referee misses hearing something, but the opposition hear it, or if he hears something he doesn't consider qualifies, then his 1, 2, 3 count will be different to theirs, meaning he will be accused of not adhering to it.

As others have said, I think you need to use less prescriptive language and give the referees some wiggle room.

Phil
 

Pegleg

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Indeed it would appear far to inflexable. The referee must have room to work for me. I like the idea, suggested in a thread reply) of assessing dissent over a period and dealing with the clubs that can't do it themselves.

NO referee should ever be asked to appologise for issuing a card.
 

Adam


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If Nigel Owens was given that policy, then I'm sure he would just ignore it.
 
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