Pat Lam takes Exeter to task on being offside at the lineout..

[tewdric]

BBC News - Premiership: Exeter Chiefs 14-9 Bristol Bears
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/46729448

..and he does seem to have a point.

 

[Taff]

Some odd wording but now that he’s raised it, I assume all the Refs will be looking out for it.

 

[nhughes]

Must admit that reading that confused me, anyone got a good example of what's supposed tp happen here? Players can advance but must retreat under certain circumstances seems unlikely in open play.

 

[Decorily]

Pretty straightforward actually.....
Backline players can advance from the 10m offside line to receive the ball that has been thrown beyond the 15m line.

If they do advance the opposition may also advance.

However if the ball does not pass the 15m line and enters the set lineout then the advancing players are offside.

I stand to be corrected but that is the way I have been refereeing it!

 

[L'irlandais]

I agree. These players are offside and must retire. It is that simple. If they do not, then they can be penalized should they interfere with play. The problem is professional players are constantly looking to exploit weaknesses in the LOTG, rather than respect the spirit of the players charter. The responsibility is not with the referees, but rather with coaches and players not respecting the obligations they have to observe the LoTG.

[LAWS]Spirit
Rugby owes much of its appeal to the fact that it is played both to the letter and within the spirit of the laws. The responsibility for ensuring that this happens lies not with one individual - it involves coaches, captains, players and referees.[/LAWS]

Application
There is an over-riding obligation on the players to observe the laws and to respect the principles of fair play. The laws must be applied in such a way as to ensure that the game is played according to the principles of play. The match officials can achieve this through fairness, consistency, sensitivity and, when appropriate, management. In return, it is the responsibility of coaches, captains and players to respect the authority of the match officials.

Well I haven’t found highlights of the Bristol game. However he said they did it against Saints. At 4:21 we see an Exeter line-out. Not convinced any offside players contributed to the try scored. The full match is available on the Premiership website, if any one is adept with time stamping an occurrence of this unpenalised offside.

Northampton Saints v Exeter Chiefs – Round 11

 

[Camquin]

It is the standard problem of not having enough eyes, even with a team of three.
So two sets of eyes tend to watch the conduct of the lineout (or scrum), one on the "defensive" backs - and we assume the backs of the side in possession want the space - so are less worried about their offside.

If you are defending a throw 5 metres out, then the defensive backs should be able to join a maul before the offence as they have less far to run..

 

[Flish]

Two of the Exeter backs piled into the maul, but you can’t see whether they were the ones that advances, if they retired, etc

 

[Taff]

Pretty straightforward actually..... Backline players can advance from the 10m offside line to receive the ball that has been thrown beyond the 15m line. If they do advance the opposition may also advance. However if the ball does not pass the 15m line and enters the set lineout then the advancing players are offside. I stand to be corrected but that is the way I have been refereeing it!

I understand the players coming forward to claim an "over the top" ball, but the wording seems to suggest they think the players can hover in the 10m area but only retire if the ball isn't thrown long. How often do we see a ball deliberately thrown long anyway? Both sides have to start at least 10m from the LoT. Once the ball has been thrown (ie once the LO has started) they can cross the offside line BUT if the ball doesn't cross the 15m line they are offside. I'm sure Lam has a point but the way he's worded it could confuse people.

 

[L'irlandais]

Gallagher Premiership Rugby website has the full match replay for those with the time on their hands to see if Pat Lam is correct in saying Exeter got away with this 3 weeks running.

At 2minutes 12 seconds into this clip, line-out 5m out from Sarries’ goal line
Here, we see Black’s back line advance but then fail to retire. Is it what Pat Lam is on about? since Black 22 and 13 and A.N. Other Black jersey, then join the back of the line-out maul.

Similarly at 3 minutes and 32 seconds a 5 m line out yields the Bonus Point try for Exeter. The there quarters line joining the line-out maul again from their “offside” position.

Highlights: Exeter Chiefs v Saracens – Round 10

 

[Ciaran Trainor]

The backs were clearly offside, poor refereeing.

 

[beckett50]

This is an interesting point that Pat Lam has raised.

The Law is clear, that until the Lineout is over ALL non participants must remain back 10m. However, how many times do we see an attacking player (usually the #9 when the line is shortened) running up to be receiver before this is the case. Do we all pay absolute attention to the attacking players?

I fully understand Pat Lam's annoyance, especially as - at that level - the ARs should be calling the offside.

I for one hope that Tony Spreadbury tells Premiership referees to tighten up on it.

 

[Blindpugh]

I think Pat Lam is referring to Laws 18.37 and 18.37b - ENDING A LINEOUT

I remember a Development session with our SADO Jim Firth explaining that our job as a referee is to maintain space at line outs and to ensure that both sets of backs remain onside until the line out has ended.

i.e. 37 b. A ruck or maul forms and all of the feet of all of the players in the ruck or maul move beyond the mark of touch.

Until that happens both sets of backs must remain 10 metres from line of touch.
Sanction: Penalty

Exeter maul(s) arestationary and do not move through the line of touch until their backs join maul and add their weight.

IMO Premiership referees are not applying the laws correctly.

 

[Decorily]

This is an interesting point that Pat Lam has raised.

The Law is clear, that until the Lineout is over ALL non participants must remain back 10m.

Well no actually.....
there is the exception, specified earlier, where the non participants may come forward!

 

[beckett50]

Well no actually.....
there is the exception, specified earlier, where the non participants may come forward!

Only if the throw goes beyond the 15m and so the lineout is over. (for the removal of any doubt, if they advance and the throw doesn't go beyond the 15m then they must retreat or be off-side)

 

[Decorily]

Only if the throw goes beyond the 15m and so the lineout is over. (for the removal of any doubt, if they advance and the throw doesn't go beyond the 15m then they must retreat or be off-side)

Well you have just contradicted yourself. ..
They can advance if their intention is to gather a ball thrown beyond 15m.
If the lineout is over they are not offside!

 

[Dickie E]

The backs were clearly offside, poor refereeing.

Indeed. And the videos indicate that it wasn't the backs just meandering up. It appears to be a tactic to get them into the maul for the push. Critical error.

 

[CrouchTPEngage]

One of my soapbox items here.
The BBC report says, about Pat Lam, "He also says they break Law 18.36 b which says that a line-out only ends when a ruck or maul forms and the feet of all the players in that ruck or maul move beyond the mark of touch. "

When a maul forms at a lineout, why do the refs on TB games seem to wave the backs in too soon ? Its quite blatant and frequently observed. Often the maul hasnt even got going.
I can only guess that the guidance has been issued to avoid giving too many "technical offside" PKs when the backs come up too early.
In my games, I know where the line-of-touch is, I keep one eye on the hind-most feet of the maul and when, and only when, I see that foot go beyond the line-of-touch do I wave in the backs.

 

[Arabcheif]

Quick question about the front lifter (defending team), in this line out. He's not bound onto the Maul, he's taken a couple of steps back. Has he technically left the lineout too early? I know it's nit picking but I'm just curious.

 

[L'irlandais]

Nothing of note in the short highlight reel. (1 minute)

I agree it looks like a play which was coached and tried out on the training paddock, since they systematically come up, even though their hooker never throws over 15m.
Extended highlights - Exeter Chiefs v Bristol Bears – Round 12
Full match : Exeter v Bristol. Anyone with a couple of time stamps for the Exeter lineouts?

 

[oliver]

Briefly skipping through (every five seconds, so entirely possible I missed something), there's one at 62:50 where it looks like it might be overthrown so the backs rush up but then are told to "Stay, stay" by the ref. Once it moves towards Exeter's line (i.e. backwards) and off the line of touch, Maxwell-Keys signals lineout over.

At the next lineout (64:00) Exeter are warned "Don't go early" and Maxwell-Keys clearly tells them "Stay there, stay there" until he deems the lineout to has passed through the line of touch.

Others looked nothing like what Lam was describing. Anyone else found any more?