Penalise the captain?

[PaulDG]

From a match report I've been sent:

Blue gave away two quick penalties for handling just outside their 22m line.The referee called over Captain XX, apparently told him that he did not see who had handled and then yellow carded the Captain. ..Those two quick penalties Blue concede were the first time the referee saw fit to speak to Blue. The yellow card mystified everybody including the Brown contingent.

Thoughts?

(Match was a high level youth match. RFU team of three.)

 

[SimonSmith]

Wrong.
Wrongity wrong.

If I interpret that correctly, the skipper got carded because the ref couldn't ID the offender....

 

[Simon Thomas]

Paul - on what you have described he was wrong to yelow card skipper.

And an RFU Panel Ref for def, or just Society Refs appointed by RFU ? I find it very hard to believe.

 

[dave_clark]

east midlands, rfu team of three. wasn't national colts final day perchance was it Paul?

 

[PaulDG]

It wasn't a local game, Dave.

 

[tim White]

My thoughts are "this was written by a person on the touchline, or in the bar afterwards, and did not hear everything between ref and captain that led up to the incident. I doubt the report is a full and fair reflection of the incident. It does show the importance of 'selling' decisions however":chin:

 

[stuart3826]

so has anyone else done anything similar?

I once gave a PK against a team for whatever offence, and one of them shouted something on the lines of "For fox's sake ref are you firkin blind?" I called in the skipper, told him I wasn't prepared to be on the receiving end of language like that but hadn't seen exactly who said it. I told him he was taking the fall for it and binned him.

I met him in the pub several months later, and we reminisced with some of his team mates, and all agreed it was fair enough:wow:

 

[SimonSmith]

If I was assessing, that would be marks off!

You cannot bin people for other people's offences. It's not justified in law, and I also feel unfair.

 

[Davet]

I agree entirely with Simon.

 

[stuart3826]

I'll tell you what then. Next time I take abuse from a player but can't be sure who did it, I'll pat the skipper on the back, and ignore the insult. I'll then invite the players to come around me in a big circle and shout at me.

My point is, this is rugby, not wendy ball, and we don't stand for that kind of behaviour. I didn't have a shirt number, but I needed the players to note who was in charge. My method worked.

 

[SimonSmith]

And I go back to - it's marks off. There are other, better ways of handling it that still show your control of the game.

Referees step outside the law to facilitate a game - last player handling in the ruck. I struggle to think of when we step outside to penalize. I do understand the temptation, but it's wrong.

 

[Dickie E]

Stuart,

if a stomping or eye gouge occurred & the miscreant couldn't be identified - would you RC the skipper?

 

[stuart3826]

mmmm valid point:chin:

 

[Simon Thomas]

You cannot penalise or YC/RD a skipper or a random player for an assumed offence that you didn't see or hear.

If you as the referee did not see or hear the ofence committed and directly identify the offender then you can't give it.

Referees don't guess these things.

By all means warn the skipper, read the riot act, etc as your management technique but you can't do as Stuart suggests and not be liable to be marked down by an assessor or not be out of line with normal accepted Society practice.

 

[Davet]

I didn't have a shirt number, but I needed the players to note who was in charge. My method worked.

Perhaps it did on that occasion. On another occasion the captain may be so shocked that he disputes your decision and you then have to show him a second yellow, and then a red.

At the disciplinary hearing you may find the committee questioning your logic quite closely<!-- / message -->

 

[Mike Whittaker]

Getting in to some dodgy areas here... It is individuals who offend and penalising skippers when they haven't offended is just not on. Suppose it happened again? would the skipper get a red? Fun filling in the forms on that one!!!

Time to get on wave length of skipper though and ensure he aware that next time somebody will walk, be it yellow or red for abuse. He should get message and get a grip.

 

[Deeps]

A couple of seasons ago while officiating across the water at one of my less favourite clubs, I witnessed an act of foul play that I found shocking but, depite being really close to the action, I could not state with any certainty which player had performed the act. I had a strong suspicion, based on my knowledge of the characters within that team but that was not good enough. During an innocuous though poorly structured maul, a clenched fist started pumping vigorously upwards three or four times; clearly the punches were landing and causing damage. I blew the whistle immediately and separated the two sides at which point the released ball carrier fell to the ground bleeding profusely from the nose and mouth.

I was at a loss for clearly I had observed a red card offence, the damaged player had to retire, yet who was the miscreant? A close knit bunch of players with a tendency to harrass referees (me and Simon Smith to my certain knowledge) and known to stick together, none were likely to admit guilt and the ranks closed firmly. Each one wore the expression of 'Who, me ref?'

The skipper, playing at full back, who was actually a mild mannered man with whom I got on with quite well, was not part of the gang of thugs and I had some sympathy with the fact that he had not seen the incident though like me would have been able to hazard a guess. I realised too that his elevation to the rank of skipper had more to do with it being his turn for this season and his readiness to collect the match subs and very little to do with his powers of leadership on the field. Thus I knew there was very little I could do to get him to find out, I could see the LMF in his eyes and decided there was no pressure I could bring to bear to resolve the issue. I read the riot act and tried to reassure the opposition skipper that I would be more attentive (correction, selective) for any future occurrences.

This incident has haunted me ever since as I allowed the guilty b@$t4rd to get away with it and the affair did nothing to enhance any street cred. that I might have had previously and left me feeling that the home side had put one over on me. I suppose my main frustration was and is that at the time I could not come up with a better way of managing the home side skipper to reach a satisfactory conclusion, nor can I think of one now.

 

[ddjamo]

could you tell the captain that you will not restart until he goes in and pulls out the man to be red carded...and if he comes up with nobody - it's a forfeit? could you ask the player who was punched who did it and look at that bloke's knuckles? could you interview your tj's? administrators? seems like there has to be something? what would you have done differently - if you could do it again - deeps? that's a tough one.

 

[SimonSmith]

That is a very high risk way to go about things - because if you don't find the perpetrator, you have to follow through.

Sometimes justice cannot be meted out on the field - if it's that bad, the Clubs can sort it out between themselves. Which is cold comfort, but the sad truth.

 

[Mike Whittaker]

As an aspiring referee I am sure I would have done the same as you Deeps. And as Simon says, the clubs can sort it out themselves; or indeed the individual could go to the police with his mates as witnesses.

Nowadays I think I would act differently. I would consider telling the skipper of the offending team that the game is stopped for 5 minutes. If one of his team now wishes to leave the pitch they may do so without penalty from me (I had not seen the culprit) and the game can continue. If nobody goes then the game is abandoned as it is unsafe to continue and the matters reported to the RFU body.

If the offence took place in the last quarter of the game I would, at the level at which I currently occasionally perform, just blow the final whistle.