On the floor you're "out of the game" . Don't play the ball. If you do I'm likely to ping you. Reference: Game is to be played by people on their feet. Why allow someone on the floor to play the ball but not tackle someone? Logically it is either both allowed or both prohibited.
This is a great thread. I love it when a very simple, common place, scenario reveals completely contrary understanding of the Laws from different refs.
This is a great thread. I love it when a very simple, common place, scenario reveals completely contrary understanding of the Laws from different refs.
Going back to the OP, isn't it a penalty for diving to ground around a tackle? But that is if you are in possession and go to ground near the tackle. Hmmmm.
Here's the law
(f)
Any player who first gains possession of the ball must not go to the ground at the tackle or near to it unless tackled by an opposition player.
On the floor you're "out of the game" . Don't play the ball. If you do I'm likely to ping you. Reference: Game is to be played by people on their feet. Why allow someone on the floor to play the ball but not tackle someone? Logically it is either both allowed or both prohibited.
But a player is allowed to play the ball on the ground - a whole section of the lawbook (Law 14) is devoted to it.
I accept that the usual scenario is a player who dives on a loose ball to secure it, but as far as I can see it doesn't actually limit it to just those players. And if you rigidly adopt the "On the floor you're "out of the game" principle, then why allow a player to dive on a loose ball?
14.1(a) A player with the ball must immediately do one of three things:
•Get up with the ball
•Pass the ball
•Release the ball.
In the OP the player who was already on the ground passed the ball immediately.
The same law that says
[This situation] .. also occurs when a player is on the ground in possession of the ball and has not been tackled.
A player who makes the ball unplayable, or who obstructs the opposing team by falling down, is negating the purpose and Spirit of the Game and must be penalised.
But in the OP the player on the ground is making the ball playable - he passed it. Why should he be penalised?
[LAWS]A player who is not tackled, but who goes to ground while holding the ball, or a player who goes to ground and gathers the ball, must act immediately.[/LAWS]
A player who goes to ground and gathers the ball covers 2 sets:
1. a player who goes to ground for the purpose of gathering the ball, and
2. a player on the the ground who comes into possession of the ball.
[LAWS]A player who is not tackled, but who goes to ground while holding the ball, or a player who goes to ground and gathers the ball, must act immediately.[/LAWS]
A player who goes to ground and gathers the ball covers 2 sets:
1. a player who goes to ground for the purpose of gathering the ball, and
2. a player on the the ground who comes into possession of the ball.
The point being you are on your feet an to carry out an action that involves you going to ground. The try scoring situation is part of the "In goal and half the book changes" situation.
If they then infringe a,b,c,d then they are penalised, if they don't then they are not.
If a player acquires possession of the ball whilst they are on the ground, then as long as they exercise their 14.1 options then play on
In fact, I'd argue that helping get the ball back 'up off the ground' by a grounded player IS consitent with helping others continue to play on their feet.
Red 12 is on the floor - slight injury, no physio in attendance. Ball is ahead of him, and Back 15 fly hacks it. Ball skids along the ground straight into the arms of Red 12 - still laid on the floor, who grabs it and pops it to Red 13 who is onside close behind him and approaching at a rate of knots.
Same situation except that Red 12 is about 2m from touch. When Black 15 fly hacks it, the ball strikes Red 12 and stops next to him. Red 12, still on the ground sticks a toe out and knocks it into touch.
Thank you everyone for your interpretations of the laws.
After reading all of the posts, my conclusion is the following:
If the player is lying on the ground and the ball bounces near to him, he can grab the ball but he must immediately pass the ball, get up with the ball, or leave the ball. These are his three options if there is not an opponent near to him trying to play the ball. If there is an opponent nearby, and he is lying on the ground and then grabs the ball, and his action has an effect on the game (e.g. prevents the opponent from taking the ball) then he must be penalized.
In the scenario of my original post, I think I screwed up because there wasn´t an opponent nearby (my mind immediately thought of laws 14 and 15) and I know that as a referee I must try to make an immediate decision. Even if it is wrong, I must make a decision and stick with it (and be consistent throughout the game.)
As a new referee, I am beginning to understand that the rules are not always black and white; there are areas of grey that the referee must manage the best that he is able to.
Same situation except that Red 12 is about 2m from touch. When Black 15 fly hacks it, the ball strikes Red 12 and stops next to him. Red 12, still on the ground sticks a toe out and knocks it into touch.
... In fact, I'd argue that helping get the ball back 'up off the ground' by a grounded player IS consitent with helping others continue to play on their feet.
.... As a new referee, I am beginning to understand that the rules are not always black and white; there are areas of grey that the referee must manage the best that he is able to.
DON'T say "rules" - they're laws. You're lucky, you may have got away with it this time. :biggrin:
What's the difference? Good question; I'm not 100% sure but I think this thread may have made it a bit clearer for me. AFAIK Laws provide a framework (general principles if you like) while Rules are rigid. Eg the laws say that the game must be played by players on their feet. If they go off their feet, there are things he can do (get up, pass, push, place or release the ball) to keep the game flowing and allow other players on their feet to get on with it. See my point?
I agree that is how it is interpreted, but if we are to be consistent with the the premise that a player off his feet is out of the game, then it ought to be a PK against Red 12 for playing the ball when off his feet.
