Penalty forum

[Arturas]

Hello,
as we have Maul/ruck, Lineout forum, maybe it would be good to have a penalty forum, because it would be usefull for young referees like I'm. For me, the main problem in penalty is penalty place.
Maybe someone can help and make on his one knowledge the summary of the places there the penalty must be.
For example:
Lineout - all on the 15 m for lineout, but for the rest can it be offside the 10 m away and in 15 metres zone? And if it has to be in the place of it?
Maul- offside must be measured on the last players line for both sides? And if the maul is long and one of the attackers comes to maul from the side, the penalty must go in the attaching place or on the last line of the foot. In another way if he crossed the offside line in the centre and attached to the ruck near the line of touch. Where must be the penalty place?
Maul- if the player is returning back and touches the ball, where must be the penalty place? On the offside line or in the place of touch?
I think, everybody would have interesting questions on this type of forum
Thank You.

 

[Robert Burns]

Arturas,

Welcome to the forums.

Regarding your query, all penalties come from one of the areas of play listed, so if you have a question about a penalty at a lineout, place it in the line out forum, like wise if at a scrum, in the scrum forum.

I hope this helps.

Enjoy the site.

 

[Arturas]

Yes, but penalties comes and in the open game. For example kicking - 10 metres zone, charging the kicker and etc. Or the situation: team is attackin in the 22, and suddenly you see, that the player begins punching in it one 22. You take one plaeyr out of the game, but what to do next? To give penalty in the 22 zone of attackers or to give scrum in the diffenders 22? Scrum can't be given for such type of interference. But the penalty also can't be given in the place where the ball was and can't be taken back, because it would be not logic.
So I think it would be usefull.

 

[Robert Burns]

Example 1 - Could be put in the 'was it right?' forum which members question their, or other referees decisions so as to get an idea of what is right consistently.

Example 2: Why can't the penalty be given at the place where the player was fighting? No problem with a Penalty in the 22.

If you mean in-Goal? Then that can go in the In-Goal Forum. (And the answer is if attacking teams penalty it's inline with the offence 5m from the goal line, and if within 15m of the touchline, then on the 15m. If defending team, same again. If players had grounded the ball for a try or drop out before the fighting, then the penalty is where the play would next start.)

 

[Arturas]

But taking penalty back for 70 metres back in the last minutes would it be fair? For example the result is 20-18, the loosing team is attacking in opposion 22 zone. And now for the being not guilty and to return 70 m you think is fair?

 

[Arturas]

Also I now checked all Law 10, there are a lot of gaps in this Law. In all situations I think must be let to use not guilty captain to choose to take opportunity to start the game with the penalty or from the place where the game stopped or from the place the the penalty was done. Just one 10. - russian version let this opportunity.

 

[Robert Burns]

All versions have the same laws, different offences give you different options. However there are no options for Foul Play, Penalty at the place where the foul play took place, or if outside the field of play, in line with the offence but at least 15m in from touch.

I Would be surprised if Play had reached the other 22 without the referee noticing that players were fighting at the other end of the pitch, however if it did happen then there would be one of 2 things happen.

If the referee knew what started the fight because an assistant referee was able to report, then they would deal with the facts as they were presented. if that meant that the penalty ended up being there, so be it.

What would probably happen is referee would admonish/card both players and then restart play with a scrum where play was stopped with the put in being given to the team who had possession when the game was stopped.

Is that fair? yes, very much so, in my opinion.

 

[OB..]

But taking penalty back for 70 metres back in the last minutes would it be fair? For example the result is 20-18, the loosing team is attacking in opposion 22 zone. And now for the being not guilty and to return 70 m you think is fair?

Law 21.1 Unless a Law states otherwise, the mark for a penalty or free kick is at the place of infringement.
If it is a penalty offence, then you have no option.

 

[Phil E]

Arturas

All penalties are at the place of the offence "unless stated otherwise".

21.1 WHERE PENALTY AND FREE KICKS ARE AWARDED
Unless a Law states otherwise, the mark for a penalty or free kick is at the place of
infringement.
21.2 WHERE PENALTY AND FREE KICKS ARE TAKEN
(a) The kicker must take the penalty or free kick at the mark or anywhere behind it on a line
through the mark. If the place for a penalty or free kick is within 5 metres of the opponents’
goal line, the mark for the kick is 5 metres from the goal line, opposite the place of
infringement.
(b) When a penalty or free kick is awarded to the defending team in in-goal, the mark for the
kick is at the place of infringement. When a penalty or free kick is awarded to the attacking
team in in-goal, the mark for the kick is in the field of play, 5 metres from the goal line, in
line with the place of infringement.
Sanction: Any infringement by the kicker’s team results in a scrum 5 metres from the goal
line in line with the mark. The opposing team throws in the ball.

I could go through the law book (or my head) and list the "unless stated otherwise", but you wouldn't learn anything from someone else doing it for you.

So why don't you list the "unless stated otherwise" places?........in the appropriate forum :wink:

Edit: OB beat me to it on law 21.1.

 

[Donal1988]

If play is in one 22 and a defending player starts a fight in other 22 wouldnt offside be an option? Meaning no loss of ground.

 

[Phil E]

If play is in one 22 and a defending player starts a fight in other 22 wouldnt offside be an option? Meaning no loss of ground.

Offside technical offence.

Fighting, foul play.

Which takes precedent? Foul play in my book.

 

[Donal1988]

Foul play would take precedent for me too but theres a time and place for it surely. Would advantage not be another option and to sort out a card afterwards.

 

[Robert Burns]

Offside?

Surely offside only matter when it's interfering with play, how can two players 70m away be interfering?

 

[Arturas]

Donald,
do you think that you could play advantages when someone is beating in another corner? In Lithuania rugby stops, fight begins so you just blow at the first signals of aggresion

 

[Arturas]

I think about another example: black1 kicks, red push black 2, and black2 blocks black 1. Where the penalty must take place?

 

[Donal1988]

Robert they are interfering if I say they are. Arturas you are right advantage isnt really an option.

However can we not offer a choice. "Peep! Green #8, you've punched another player, its not going to be tolerated Red Card. Blue Captain your choice - penalty for foul play in your 22 or penalty for offside in their 22. You want offside? Fine. Penalty here Blue #8 was offside and prevened an opposition player joining the attack".

Simple but also equitable.

 

[Arturas]

Donald,
But if
1. there are no maul or ruch, where is no offside line- what to do?
2. for ruck and maul, you must punnished in the plays of action. So back for 22 in defenders zone.

 

[Phil E]

However can we not offer a choice. "Peep! Green #8, you've punched another player, its not going to be tolerated Red Card. Blue Captain your choice - penalty for foul play in your 22 or penalty for offside in their 22. You want offside? Fine. Penalty here Blue #8 was offside and prevened an opposition player joining the attack".

...............and your assessor / opposition coach / opposition captain say "under what law does that option come please?"

You answer?.......................(6.A.4 does not constitute a correct answer)

 

[Donal1988]

Ill find a loophole - you wait and see

 

[Robert Burns]

Donal,

May I suggest you don't do that when assessed! That decision will not do you any good in trying to advance.

Arturas,

It's not a late tackle so technically you can't go to where the ball landed, how ever if you worded it right I'm sure no one would argue with you. I'm quite sure the laws won't be that well known by players in Lithuania.

To be a good referee you have to be able to apply the law, but manage the game. Anyone can be a referee and know all the laws, but you'll be blowing your whistle all game and the game won't flow as well as it could.

Instead we try to prevent offences, if you see two players looking like they are about to fight, tell them to stop and get on with the game, keep an eye on them until they split (always while watching the game).

If you see players offside, tell them to get back onside before they interfere with play.

Most of all try to let the game flow. You'll get the most out of your game this way.

How long have you been Refereeing and what is Rugby like in Lithuania? (How many teams/leagues, how much support, etc?)