Penalty Try *and* penalty restart

smeagol


Referees in America
Joined
Apr 20, 2012
Messages
718
Post Likes
97
Location
Springfield, IL
Current Referee grade:
Level 8
Last weekend, a senior referee described an incident where a defender led with knees as an attacker was in the act of scoring.

He couldn’t definitively determine whether the ball had been grounded, so gave the PT and restarted with a penalty to the attacking side on the halfway.

IMO, this was incorrect - my reading is that the only way you restart with a penalty on the halfway is if something happens *after* the try is scored, but couldn’t find anything on the spot in the laws to back my position.
 

Dickie E


Referees in Australia
Joined
Jan 19, 2007
Messages
14,122
Post Likes
2,142
Current Referee grade:
Level 2
I agree with you. The referee needs to decide if the offence is before or after the grounding. It can't be both
 

Phil E


Referees in England
Staff member
Joined
Jan 22, 2008
Messages
16,087
Post Likes
2,352
Current Referee grade:
Level 8
If the offence occurs before you have blown your whistle, deal with it there and then. That would be a card for me.

If the offence happens after you blow your whistle, then yes a penalty restart might be appropriate.
 

Dickie E


Referees in Australia
Joined
Jan 19, 2007
Messages
14,122
Post Likes
2,142
Current Referee grade:
Level 2
If the offence occurs before you have blown your whistle, deal with it there and then. That would be a card for me.

If the offence happens after you blow your whistle, then yes a penalty restart might be appropriate.
Don't 100% agree because there is some nuance. If the grounding is completed and, while the referee is bring whistle to lips, there is foul play, then the try should be awarded and PK restart. The decision point is the grounding, not the blowing of whistle
 

Decorily

Coach/Referee
Joined
May 3, 2013
Messages
1,564
Post Likes
425
Current Referee grade:
Select Grade
I agree with you. The referee needs to decide if the offence is before or after the grounding. It can't be both
Yes and in this case it appears that the offender was penalised twice for a single act of foul play.
 

SimonSmith


Referees in Australia
Staff member
Joined
Jan 27, 2004
Messages
9,353
Post Likes
1,455
Don't 100% agree because there is some nuance. If the grounding is completed and, while the referee is bring whistle to lips, there is foul play, then the try should be awarded and PK restart. The decision point is the grounding, not the blowing of whistle
That was my immediate reaction as well
 

Volun-selected


Referees in America
Joined
Jun 11, 2018
Messages
555
Post Likes
305
Location
United States
Current Referee grade:
Level 8
Seems off to me. Shenanigans happen in the build up, or even just after the try (if in doing so they stop the try happening in a better location). PT, 7 points, card as necessary, restart. I’d need to see something clearly after the PT incident before I’d consider restarting with a penalty.

One possibility is that the ref thought the foul play was a really dirty hit - in which case if it was that bad he always had the option to PT and then RC.
 

Phil E


Referees in England
Staff member
Joined
Jan 22, 2008
Messages
16,087
Post Likes
2,352
Current Referee grade:
Level 8
Don't 100% agree because there is some nuance. If the grounding is completed and, while the referee is bring whistle to lips, there is foul play, then the try should be awarded and PK restart. The decision point is the grounding, not the blowing of whistle

There will always be grey areas, I was giving a rule of thumb.
 

didds

Resident Club Coach
Joined
Jan 27, 2004
Messages
12,057
Post Likes
1,788
I don't think that is a grey area TBH. was the foul play before the try was scored or afterwards. The whistle timing is irrelevant.
 

Phil E


Referees in England
Staff member
Joined
Jan 22, 2008
Messages
16,087
Post Likes
2,352
Current Referee grade:
Level 8
I don't think that is a grey area TBH. was the foul play before the try was scored or afterwards. The whistle timing is irrelevant.

Interestingly I can no longer find this scenario mentioned in the laws, I am guessing it has been moved to somewhere obscure. It used to be mentioned under Foul Play.
 

Balones

Referee Advisor / Assessor
Joined
Oct 24, 2006
Messages
1,423
Post Likes
470
Interestingly I can no longer find this scenario mentioned in the laws, I am guessing it has been moved to somewhere obscure. It used to be mentioned under Foul Play.
In the version of the laws prior to the simplification the mention of awarding a penalty at the place of restart after a dead ball was under foul play. 10.4n
There was no specific mention of after a try, just offences after a dead ball situation. The wording was not much different to what is in 20.1 as I quoted earlier.
 

Locke


Referees in America
Joined
Jan 23, 2022
Messages
241
Post Likes
148
Current Referee grade:
Level 10
In the table for Law 20.1 second item; play restarts with a PK where play would normally restart i.e. half way
I agree with you but I also noticed the 20.1 table references the restart’s “sanction line” which technically only applies to 22DO and GLDO. I think it’s just an instance of slightly imprecise wording…
 

Volun-selected


Referees in America
Joined
Jun 11, 2018
Messages
555
Post Likes
305
Location
United States
Current Referee grade:
Level 8
I agree with you but I also noticed the 20.1 table references the restart’s “sanction line” which technically only applies to 22DO and GLDO. I think it’s just an instance of slightly imprecise wording…

The second scenario only applies if you’re restarting with a drop out.
If play would have restarted with a drop-out, the mark is anywhere on the drop-out’s sanction line (non-offending team decides).


The first example covers a restart:
At the point where play would have restarted or, if that place is on the touchline or within 15 metres of it, the mark is on the 15-metre line, in line with that place.]
 

Locke


Referees in America
Joined
Jan 23, 2022
Messages
241
Post Likes
148
Current Referee grade:
Level 10
The second scenario only applies if you’re restarting with a drop out.
If play would have restarted with a drop-out, the mark is anywhere on the drop-out’s sanction line (non-offending team decides).


The first example covers a restart:
At the point where play would have restarted or, if that place is on the touchline or within 15 metres of it, the mark is on the 15-metre line, in line with that place.]
Fair call out. I suppose a restart kick after a score is a drop kick but not technically a “drop out”?
 

tim White


Referees in England
Joined
Mar 14, 2005
Messages
1,997
Post Likes
257
A re-start after a score is different from a re-start after foul play when the ball was already dead; in this case though they are in the same place.
 
Top