Penalty Try *and* penalty restart

[smeagol]

Last weekend, a senior referee described an incident where a defender led with knees as an attacker was in the act of scoring.

He couldn’t definitively determine whether the ball had been grounded, so gave the PT and restarted with a penalty to the attacking side on the halfway.

IMO, this was incorrect - my reading is that the only way you restart with a penalty on the halfway is if something happens *after* the try is scored, but couldn’t find anything on the spot in the laws to back my position.

 

[Dickie E]

I agree with you. The referee needs to decide if the offence is before or after the grounding. It can't be both

 

[Balones]

I believe Law 20.1 covers it. After ball is dead the penalty is where play would restart.

 

[Phil E]

If the offence occurs before you have blown your whistle, deal with it there and then. That would be a card for me.

If the offence happens after you blow your whistle, then yes a penalty restart might be appropriate.

 

[didds]

I agree with you. The referee needs to decide if the offence is before or after the grounding. It can't be both

I agree.
Maybe that ref's name is Schrodinger. Where the foul play simultaneously does and doesn't happen before the grounding.

 

[Dickie E]

If the offence occurs before you have blown your whistle, deal with it there and then. That would be a card for me.

If the offence happens after you blow your whistle, then yes a penalty restart might be appropriate.

Don't 100% agree because there is some nuance. If the grounding is completed and, while the referee is bring whistle to lips, there is foul play, then the try should be awarded and PK restart. The decision point is the grounding, not the blowing of whistle

 

[Decorily]

I agree with you. The referee needs to decide if the offence is before or after the grounding. It can't be both

Yes and in this case it appears that the offender was penalised twice for a single act of foul play.

 

[SimonSmith]

Don't 100% agree because there is some nuance. If the grounding is completed and, while the referee is bring whistle to lips, there is foul play, then the try should be awarded and PK restart. The decision point is the grounding, not the blowing of whistle

That was my immediate reaction as well

 

[Volun-selected]

Seems off to me. Shenanigans happen in the build up, or even just after the try (if in doing so they stop the try happening in a better location). PT, 7 points, card as necessary, restart. I’d need to see something clearly after the PT incident before I’d consider restarting with a penalty.

One possibility is that the ref thought the foul play was a really dirty hit - in which case if it was that bad he always had the option to PT and then RC.

 

[Phil E]

Don't 100% agree because there is some nuance. If the grounding is completed and, while the referee is bring whistle to lips, there is foul play, then the try should be awarded and PK restart. The decision point is the grounding, not the blowing of whistle

There will always be grey areas, I was giving a rule of thumb.

 

[didds]

I don't think that is a grey area TBH. was the foul play before the try was scored or afterwards. The whistle timing is irrelevant.

 

[Phil E]

I don't think that is a grey area TBH. was the foul play before the try was scored or afterwards. The whistle timing is irrelevant.

Interestingly I can no longer find this scenario mentioned in the laws, I am guessing it has been moved to somewhere obscure. It used to be mentioned under Foul Play.

 

[Balones]

Interestingly I can no longer find this scenario mentioned in the laws, I am guessing it has been moved to somewhere obscure. It used to be mentioned under Foul Play.

In the version of the laws prior to the simplification the mention of awarding a penalty at the place of restart after a dead ball was under foul play. 10.4n
There was no specific mention of after a try, just offences after a dead ball situation. The wording was not much different to what is in 20.1 as I quoted earlier.

 

[tim White]

In the table for Law 20.1 second item; play restarts with a PK where play would normally restart i.e. half way

 

[Locke]

In the table for Law 20.1 second item; play restarts with a PK where play would normally restart i.e. half way

I agree with you but I also noticed the 20.1 table references the restart’s “sanction line” which technically only applies to 22DO and GLDO. I think it’s just an instance of slightly imprecise wording…

 

[Volun-selected]

I agree with you but I also noticed the 20.1 table references the restart’s “sanction line” which technically only applies to 22DO and GLDO. I think it’s just an instance of slightly imprecise wording…

The second scenario only applies if you’re restarting with a drop out.

If play would have restarted with a drop-out, the mark is anywhere on the drop-out’s sanction line (non-offending team decides).

The first example covers a restart:

At the point where play would have restarted or, if that place is on the touchline or within 15 metres of it, the mark is on the 15-metre line, in line with that place.]

 

[Locke]

The second scenario only applies if you’re restarting with a drop out.

If play would have restarted with a drop-out, the mark is anywhere on the drop-out’s sanction line (non-offending team decides).

The first example covers a restart:

At the point where play would have restarted or, if that place is on the touchline or within 15 metres of it, the mark is on the 15-metre line, in line with that place.]

Fair call out. I suppose a restart kick after a score is a drop kick but not technically a “drop out”?

 

[smeagol]

Fair call out. I suppose a restart kick after a score is a drop kick but not technically a “drop out”?

Restarts after a score are 12.4

Drop-outs are 12.11-19

 

[tim White]

A re-start after a score is different from a re-start after foul play when the ball was already dead; in this case though they are in the same place.