Placer / Holder

timmad

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I ran touch at my local club yesterday in 'wooftie' (gale force) conditions. This gave rise to debate between myself and several supporters about laws which come into play on such days. Firstly - bear with - there were restarts into the wind which travelled 10 metres but were then blown back towards the halfway line. The supporters called for a the kick again / scrum option but the referee allowed play to continue.
I looked up the law afterwards:
12.7 If the ball reaches the 10-metre line but is then blown back or if an opponent plays the ball before it reaches the 10-metre line, play continues.

Another windy day one which thankfully - as a TJ - didn't occur:
8.6 If the ball has crossed the crossbar and the wind blows it back into the field of play, the score stands.

But on to my question drawing on the wisdom and experience of members of this forum. To prevent the ball falling off the tee, kickers were assisted by placers.
8.8c Places the ball directly on the ground or on sand, sawdust, or a kicking tee. The kicker may be assisted by a placer. Nothing else may be used to assist the kicker.
9. The kicker’s team, apart from a team-mate holding the ball, stay behind the ball when it is kicked and do nothing to mislead their opponents into charging too soon.

My contention was was that 'team-mate' meant a player who was currently on the pitch - not the various subs / coaches the referee allowed - not that it made any difference to the outcome

Who is correct?
 

OB..


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I ran touch at my local club yesterday in 'wooftie' (gale force) conditions. This gave rise to debate between myself and several supporters about laws which come into play on such days. Firstly - bear with - there were restarts into the wind which travelled 10 metres but were then blown back towards the halfway line. The supporters called for a the kick again / scrum option but the referee allowed play to continue.
I looked up the law afterwards:
12.7 If the ball reaches the 10-metre line but is then blown back or if an opponent plays the ball before it reaches the 10-metre line, play continues.

Another windy day one which thankfully - as a TJ - didn't occur:
8.6 If the ball has crossed the crossbar and the wind blows it back into the field of play, the score stands.

But on to my question drawing on the wisdom and experience of members of this forum. To prevent the ball falling off the tee, kickers were assisted by placers.
8.8c Places the ball directly on the ground or on sand, sawdust, or a kicking tee. The kicker may be assisted by a placer. Nothing else may be used to assist the kicker.
9. The kicker’s team, apart from a team-mate holding the ball, stay behind the ball when it is kicked and do nothing to mislead their opponents into charging too soon.

My contention was was that 'team-mate' meant a player who was currently on the pitch - not the various subs / coaches the referee allowed - not that it made any difference to the outcome

Who is correct?
For 8.6 see https://www.rugbydump.com/news/felipe-contepomi-penalty-blown-back-over/

I don't know that the matter of using a sub as a holder has ever been decided. "Team-mate" is simply defined as "Another player of the same team." However you cannot have more than 15 players on the pitch at one time, so that would seem to rule out bringing a player on simply as the holder. He would have to be a legal sub.

When I started playing, the opposition could charge the conversion attempt as soon as the ball hit the ground. This meant that a holder (usually the scrum half) would lie on the ground with one finger under the ball and one on top to hold it steady while the kicker (usually the full back) ran up to kick.

There were, of course, no subs in those days.
 

Balones

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You are. I know some referees allow the tee carrier as long as he is a sub/replacement etc and is going to take the tee off to hold the ball but as the law states you cannot have more than 15 in the pitch so you can’t have it both ways as far as I’m concerned.
 

Arabcheif

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I hear what you're saying. But technically that means a Sub can't bring on water or the tee for the kick. So given Replacements are defined as someone in the same team, these would qualify as a team mate. So I can see nothing disallowing the practice of a replacement holding the ball in Law. I wouldn't have a problem with it..... I had an team's official complain that a player I'd YC'd brought water onto the pitch while his team were taking a conversion. She (the YC'd player), was nowhere near the player kicking, didn't do anything to distract or put off the kicker. I just told him that I was there to let a game of rugby take place. Lets concentrate on that.
 

Dave Elliott

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ear with - there were restarts into the wind which travelled 10 metres but were then blown back towards the halfway line. The supporters called for a the kick again / scrum option but the referee allowed play to continue.
I love it when the vocal fans/coaches don’t know the laws, but insist on calling out their version of them!
 

OB..


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On none of the cases where there is more than 15 players on the pitch (water carriers, player with tee etc) is the game actually being played. A sub steadying the ball for a kick us taking part in play and contravenes the 15 player limit.
 

crossref


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For me
- if it's a conversion, I would let it go, doesn't seem important
- if it's a PK at goal : then the placer has to be one of the 15, as the ball is live. If the ball comes back off the posts into field, I don't want 16 players on the pitch
- a YC player cannot come onto the pitch under any circumstances --- that's a team really taking the p****.
 

Bunniksider


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On Saturday one of my teams were using a young lad (10-12yo ?) to bring on the kicking tee and water. I was happy with this at conversions but when he came on for a penalty I politely asked him (via the capt) to leave the field for his own safety as the the ball was still live and we could have a play on situation.

Coach, skipper and young lad were all happy with this after the game when I made a point of explaining my reasoning and also thanking the lad for his contribution at conversions and wishing him the best with his rugby.
 

Zebra1922


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For me it has to be one of the 15 players on the pitch. Simples.
 

Phil E


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My game on Saturday, at a conversion the tee carrier (not a player) went to hold the ball due to the wind.
The opposition then politely asked "is he allowed to do that Sir".
"No he isn't, it needs to be a team mate" i replied
Que lots of shouting for a player to come and hold the ball on the tee.

Later in the game the questioning team tried to do the same thing and have the tee carrier hold the ball. For some reason they seemed to think this was unreasonable when I told them it had to be a player??? Go figure?
 

Arabcheif

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For me it has to be one of the 15 players on the pitch. Simples.
Do you have the Law refence that specifies that it MUST be one of the on-field players? Just so I can confidently say, it's in the Law book, then not get stumped when I can't find the Law ref after the match. :)
 

Zebra1922


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Do you have the Law refence that specifies that it MUST be one of the on-field players? Just so I can confidently say, it's in the Law book, then not get stumped when I can't find the Law ref after the match. :)
Nope, but then I don’t have a law reference that disagrees with this - so what I say goes (In my games of course!)
 

Phil E


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For Conversions and Penalty Kicks the law states you can only use a Tee and a Placer

Places the ball directly on the ground or on sand, sawdust, or a kicking tee. The kicker may be assisted by a placer. Nothing else may be used to assist the kicker.


The definition of a Placer is in the definitions

Placer: A player holding the ball for a team-mate to place kick.


Does the placer have to be part of the 15 players on the pitch?
This statement from Law 20 would suggest yes

Other than the placer at a place-kick, the kicker’s team must remain behind the ball until it has been kicked.


Sometimes they make it hard work to get an answer to a simple question :rolleyes:
 

Mipper


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i have never considered, or come across an example whereby one of the replacements, or someone else has held the ball.

irrespective of the laws, it seems to me that the “holder” Is taking part in the actual conversion, and therefore has to be a player.
 

crossref


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i have never considered, or come across an example whereby one of the replacements, or someone else has held the ball.

irrespective of the laws, it seems to me that the “holder” Is taking part in the actual conversion, and therefore has to be a player.
the usual scenario is that it is a conversion

as the kicker is setting up, it dawns on him that its windy and someone is needed to hold the ball.

all his team mates are back behind the halfway line, having some water, but standing right there next to him is the guy who brought the tee out.

so he asks the guy who brought the tee out to hold the ball.

To me : it would seem very pedantic for the ref to insist that, instead, he summons one of his team mates.

(PK are different)
 

Shelflife


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You have a point Crossref, but then at the next Pen they will want the "tee boy" to do the same and you will be blue in the face explaining it to them.

Im a big believer in KISS, keep it simple stupid.

Dont complicate things and avoid situations that can come back to bite you.

One of the 15 has to be the holder and thats it.
 

Phil E


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By letting the tee carrier hold the ball on a windy day you are effectively giving them more time to prepare for the kick; compared to if them getting a player to run over, which is going to take 20 second or so.
 
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