Player Influence

[wolfie]

Refed my first game yesterday and I am still on a high. What a learning curve and experience. Must say thanks to this site I am sure I and the game benefited form it.

Anyway player influence, I had plenty of "ref can you just watch............." the main one being the fly half shooting forward into an offside position. I used "materiallity" because he was as slow as a snail and wasn't really influiencing anything. Where as when the No.8 (happened to be an old friend of mine) sneaked down the side of a maul into offside I got him.

There were other secnarios of "ref can you watch..................."

So how do you look at it?
Do you just ignore them?, I'm the ref and I will deal with what I see.
Do you start to look for what you have just been told? Therefore surcoming to the wishes of the the other team and risking been influenced by them.

On a positive note it definatley bought to my attention my areas of weakness and the areas I need to improve. I:E watching for offside's, and both captains said they were very happy with my performance.

 

[Gareth-Lee Smith]

Sometimes I'll say 'yes I will', and then give them a stern look if they try to embellish further.

Sometimes I'll say 'and make sure your team do the same'.

Sometimes, if they're being ridiculous, I'll be less diplomatic.

Sometimes it gets a bit too much and I get stricter on how much I let them talk. In any instance, only captains get 'full right of audience', whilst others are allowed to just make a quick comment if they catch me at the right time.


Going back to your offside and the #10 - the thing you have to be careful of when applying materiality in terms of the offside laws, is did the player cut down the options available? Would the attackers have gone route one if it wasn't for the #10? That's the sort of thing you have to ask yourself.

 

[wolfie]

Gareth

Many thanks for your thoughts, the game was in good spirits overall so I let the comments go for a while, I am thick skined enough to at least look like I am ignoring them, but do learn from them. I did have a word with the captains at half time about it though.

About the #10 understand fully what you say and will learn from it, in this case he was prerty usless as a rugby player let alone fly-half and the other team still managed to finish 50 points clear.

 

[Gareth-Lee Smith]

Excellent - sounds like you managed it well! Welcome to the fraternity

One further tip: sometimes you'll make decisions that confuse the players that you're reffing, just because you know the laws better than them. If you can almost commentate as you go along (hell, you may well be doing this already) then you'll prevent a lot of questions. Wayne Barnes does it well.

In the above situation it'd be: "#10 was marginal but he's not affecting play, play on!", as you run towards the next phase of play. If you can do this (especially if you referee kids), then you've won half the battle.

 

[Dixie]

And a quick word with #10 next time you are running close to one another. let him know he was offside, but lucky on that occasion as it didn't make a difference - may not be so fortunate next time.

Personally, in my third season I am now very happy to hear from a player if he feels there's an aspect of the game that's not getting the attention it deserves. I'll thank the player for his observation (if it was tendered in an acceptable way) and let him know I'll be alert to that sort of thing in future.

In my earlier days, when I was less confident in what I was doing (and pretty certain that a lot of it was actually pretty poor) I was less inclined to accept this sort of "assistance" - though I still found it useful to know the areas I needed to sharpen up on. So I told 'em I was giving what I saw, and waved them away. Looking back, I think this just contributed to player dissatisfaction on both sides, which translated into verbals, which put more pressure on me than if I had simply acknowledged the player's view, and become alive to the possibility that the tighthead was was indeed binding on the arm and driving across.

But I never change my view on matters such as foot up and not straight, which account for the vast majority of the advice I'm given by players. I'm always alive to it, and if the degree of transgression hits my threshold, I ping it. So I let the player know that I am happy with what I've seen so far, and leave it to him to figure out how to play to my thresholds rather than me playing to his.

 

[Davet]

I always simply say "OK - I'll keep an eye out for it"

Last time out it was the Red captain complaining that the scrum feed wasn't straight enough. Sure enough next scrum I kept a close eye, and all could see the feed was crooked. Peep - FK.

Trouble was it was the Red 9 that fed it.

Captain just shrugged and pulled a face. His comment in the bar was "That'll teach me to keep quiet"

 

[SimonSmith]

"thank you" - deadpan and flat.

I tell the captains that what I don't want to hear is what I'm missing...

 

[Greg Collins]

I always simply say "OK - I'll keep an eye out for it"

Last time out it was the Red captain complaining that the scrum feed wasn't straight enough. Sure enough next scrum I kept a close eye, and all could see the feed was crooked. Peep - FK.

Trouble was it was the Red 9 that fed it.

Captain just shrugged and pulled a face. His comment in the bar was "That'll teach me to keep quiet"

What Davet says....

This Saturday I was reffing a team who had made my life miserable very early in the season. I decided before the match that "requests" of the "Sir will you watch for...." variety, provided they were +ve and made at the right time and in the right tone of voice, would be responded to +vely by me along the "I'll take another look" lines above. Comments on my decisions, eyesight, parentage, whinges and questioning of my abilities etc. would get treated as dissent and get ATP'd. It worked much better....

 

[Mat 04]

In any instance, only captains get 'full right of audience', whilst others are allowed to just make a quick comment if they catch me at the right time.

You big wuss Gaz I have dont have the patience like that for one of those "overkill captains" who feel the need to talk to you ever 30 seconds.

Typical line I use - "I allow you to talk to me as a courtesy, in return I expect you to actually *listen* when I reply" Usually followed by "asshole" , but that is under my breath

 

[Davet]

Mat04 - I've never had to say that to anyone yet.

If the captain wants to say something then if there is a natural opportunity for him to do so then i'll listen. In fact if any player asks a quick in passing question then I'll respond - if time allows.

If we are still playing, someone is taking a quick PK etc then we go and simply say "later"

I then make a point of inviting them to finish the question when we have a stoppage.

I find that I get more respect from the players if I give them some as well.

 

[Emmet Murphy]

I completely agree with Davet's approach and try to follow that as far as I'm able to.

 

[Padster]

I do not mind if I am asked at an appropriate time by the captain. I will look at what is commented on and try to provide feedback. Another aspect to this I find really important is to ensure the captains get respect from their players. I try to reinforce that they go through the captain so as not to undermine him/her.

 

[beckett50]

I think it is all about style.

Dixie made a very valid point that with confidence comes the ability to deal with the little "Ref can you keep an eye on..." statements that are made. Usually from the FR players and they generally relate to binding, not straight feed and boring in.

Personally I give a little smile and tell them that I will look for it, but that they must ensure they are not doing the same. Its all part of the comaraderie and gamesmanship that goes on. Remember that you will generally have more contact with the forwards during the game and there is no reason not to use the downtime to communicate.

As to the captains. Make it part of your prematch pre-amble to them, that you are happy for them to clarify a decision but to do so at a natural pause in the play.

 

[phillo]

Hi, in my first season too and have had this a few times. With things like foot up and crooked put in, I've found it useful at the next scrum to say things like "Get it in straight, please?" Or "Wait until the ball's in before you strike, please" - usually gets a polite, "yes sir" and they can't complain then if you do ping them. This works a lot better that when the captain speaks to you, then you immediately ping the opposition at the next scrum, then it really looks like you're being influenced.

 

[Davet]

phillo - agree entirely. If a captain says -they're xxxx at the scrum, then simply say you'll watch for it, tell 'em all at the next scrum not to xxxxx - and then proceed as appropriate should anyone do so.

 

[SF_Rugger]

I am in my fourth season and dealing with these types of comments is becoming a formality. I take it as a way for a captain/player to vent about something they thought was wrong. A quick acknowledgement, a warning to both teams and continue on with the game. If the captain continues to comment, I pull him aside and remind him that I am the referee and everything is within the laws. I have only had to PK a captain for dissent for continuously commenting.

 

[ExHookah]

You even hear it going on in pro matches on TV thanks to the advent of ref mic's, and typically the refs tend to respond with a brief :

"Thank you Lawrence, I'll keep an eye on it."

As has been mentioned, the Wayne Barnes approach where you call out the play on decisions on the 50:50 situations can be helpful because the players know that you have your eyes open.