Popping head up our of scrum when going backwards

[CrouchTPEngage]

Just reffed on Saturday a game where the scrum was a bit one sided.
At one point, the defending side had been pushed back about 2 metres when I saw their Loose Head pop his head up.

I penalised him for losing his bind but in the bar after, he complained and quoted chapter and verse from the law book saying that anyone popping out of the scrum should result in a reset.
I said I considered it deliberate ploy to prevent losing his own scrum and hence the penalty.

Was I wrong ?

 

[Rushforth]

No

 

[Browner]

All props quote "chapter & verse" but the question is . was he quoting the correct chapter & verse?

[LAWS] Player forced upwards. If a player in a scrum is lifted in the air, or is forced upwards out of the scrum, the referee must blow the whistle immediately so that players stop pushing. [/LAWS] But there is no sanction, so presumably it's a reset?

This is interesting.... because the word OR suggests that there is another way of being "forced upwards" other than being lifted, perhaps this is being popped up?

Front rows standing up doesn't seem to happen in my matches [ I'm trying to think what i'm doing right !] so does anyone have a Law reference for the offence of standing up?

 

[ChrisR]

20.8(i) prohibits lifting or forcing a player up out of the scrum. PK.

There is no sanction against a player popping himself up unless he unbinds.

 

[ChrisR]

There is a huge difference between being lifted and popped up.

"Popped up" is when your head comes out of the scrum. Bad, but a player can pop out himself to relieve pressure from a bad position.

Being "lifted" is very dangerous because your head stays bound and pressed down and your feet come off the ground. If you ever see this then immediate whistle and PK against the lifters.

In the last World Cup the All Blacks lifted the entire Canadian front row and it was IGNORED!

 

[Browner]

20.8(i) prohibits lifting or forcing a player up out of the scrum. PK.

There is no sanction against a player popping himself up unless he unbinds.

So why are the team that come up 1st always penalised with a PK ?

 

[Browner]

I said I considered it deliberate ploy to prevent losing his own scrum and hence the penalty.

Was I wrong ?

Yes you are , IF you can't support the decision it with a law contravention.

Forget Showbiz for a moment ....their refs have different laws!!!!!!!!!

 

[ChrisR]

So why are the team that come up 1st always penalised with a PK ?

That is a very good question and pertains to the OP.

After a front row player pops up they a. have relieved the pressure and mitigated the risk and b. are no longer an effective scrummager. So why are they penalized?

 

[ChrisR]

Not wishing to hijack the thread but .....

This is similar to the LH prop loosing his bind and putting his hand on the deck to stop from collapsing then re-binds but gats PKd. Happened in England/Ireland match last year and was PKd. Very wrong as the TH was binding on his arm.

 

[Dixie]

CTPE, remember that in Showbiz, they players are at work during the game. In our games, the players are taking a break from work by playing the game, but they need to go back to work on Monday. At showbiz, the prop buckling under pressure and bailing out expects to get the PK against, because he has been forced to concede the scrum and no-one will pay to watch endless resets once the pros realise that you can just buy a reset by popping up.

At our level, the pop-up is a humiliation caused by the need to avoid injury. IMO, it would be dangerous to treat it as a penalty offence - and I suspect that is why the laws of the game do not do so. Penalising the breaking of the bind is often seen as a way around that - but it doesn't address the danger issue, and is often problematic in that the standing prop may not ever have released his opponent's shirt.

 

[Browner]

Not wishing to hijack the thread but .....

This is similar to the LH prop loosing his bind and putting his hand on the deck to stop from collapsing then re-binds but gats PKd. Happened in England/Ireland match last year and was PKd. Very wrong as the TH was binding on his arm.

No, its completely different ...LHP is commiting a binding offence.(granted another offending action may cause it)

What I'm saying is ' popping yourself up' isn't unlawful ( I'm assuming binds are maintained whilst it's happening!)

If it is....where sayeth so?

 

[ChrisR]

No, its completely different ...LHP is commiting a binding offence.(granted another offending action may cause it)

What I'm saying is ' popping yourself up' isn't unlawful ( I'm assuming binds are maintained whilst it's happening!)

If it is....where sayeth so?

What I mean by "similar" is not the action by the players but the decision of the referee to PK the victim.

 

[Browner]

Ha ha .......that secret got out many moons ago !

 

[Taff]

IMO this is a glaring problem with the law and one which isn't going to go away. In fact, I can see it getting worse; I have no stats to back it up, but "Baling Out" under pressure seems to be a lot more common now than it was back in my playing days.

I queried exactly what the offence was at a recent meeting and was told that it was "Releasing the binding" ... which is a PK offence. But, bear in mind the definition of binding.

Binding: Grasping firmly another player’s body between the shoulders and the hips with the whole arm in contact from hand to shoulder.

Now, if I was a FR player I would argue that I could still maintain a full arm bind and pop my head out of the scrum. And if I can still maintain a full arm bind, I have not released my binding by definition.

.... Front rows standing up doesn't seem to happen in my matches [ I'm trying to think what i'm doing right !] so does anyone have a Law reference for the offence of standing up?

Don't bother looking for it, because there isn't one. The usual quoted law is 20.39(a) but players seem to manage to bind on to other players perfectly well in rucks and mauls without interlocking their heads.

20.3 Binding in the scrum
(a) Binding by all front row players. All front row players must bind firmly and continuously from the start to the finish of the scrum. Sanction: Penalty kick

... Being "lifted" is very dangerous because your head stays bound and pressed down and your feet come off the ground. If you ever see this then immediate whistle and PK against the lifters.

I agree that being lifted is very dangerous, but I don't agree that it's the oppositions fault. I've mentioned this before but it is relevant. In the one game I played prop (one of the worst "decisions" of my life) I was lifted mercilessly BUT I still reckon that it was my own crap rechnique that caused it and the angle of the 2nd Row player behind me; ie it wasn't my opponents fault at all. To prove it, I reckon that given a few minutes even with my dodgy back I could lift a prop with just a scrummaging machine and no opponent at all.

.... IMO, it would be dangerous to treat it as a penalty offence - and I suspect that is why the laws of the game do not do so. Penalising the breaking of the bind is often seen as a way around that - but it doesn't address the danger issue, and is often problematic in that the standing prop may not ever have released his opponent's shirt.

In effect, it's already being treated as a PK offence.

 

[Browner]

What I mean by "similar" is not the action by the players but the decision of the referee to PK the victim.

But that would mean I'd have to subscribe to the view that a person who pops up is a victim, and I don't.
I follow the view he's a pressure release valve

In addition , your LHP is only a victim of the referee observation failure

 

[Browner]

Taft, the releasing the binding answer you got is merely the nearest ' cap that fits'

If I think a side are popping deliberately then I'm needing a way of discouraging them, hopefully ive ability to spot the genuine from the disingenuous

I can tell you this, whenever I've used this 'cap'. ( rare) the up-poppers suddenly seem more able to stay down....strange that !!

 

[CrouchTPEngage]

Appreciate the advice, people.
I'll take another think about how I manage that.
Given the context of the game ( his side always going backwards at the scrum ) I took it to be a deliberate ploy to reset the scrum that they had already lost or about to lose. Hence I PK'd him for his loss-of-bind.
I'll treat him with more sympathy and tend to reset the scrum next time ( unless he keeps standing up in the scrum repeatedly of course ).

 

[ChrisR]

Crouch, if you believe it's just a ploy to get a reset, and the popper is not in a really bad situation, and his side is going backwards then ignore it. When he realizes that you're not buying then he'll stop trying to sell.

Now, if a hooker or TH pops and they're getting their ribs crushed then I'd call for a reset not a PK. And the team in possession gets the feed.

Taff, I agree that a prop can cause the lift thru bad posture and in your case, after the second occurrence you should have been replaced or gone to uncontested. However, that is not generally the case and when one prop is overmatched and getting lifted then the opposite prop has a responsibility to keep him safe.

 

[Account Deleted]

So why are the team that come up 1st always penalised with a PK ?

They aren't. The side pinged is usually the one that the referee perceives to be the weaker scrum.

 

[Lee Lifeson-Peart]

Crouch, if you believe it's just a ploy to get a reset, and the popper is not in a really bad situation, and his side is going backwards then ignore it. When he realizes that you're not buying then he'll stop trying to sell.

Do we have that discretion? I know Showbiz refs do (ignore it).

Popping up warrants a reset or a PK IMO. If not we run the risk of not applying the law at the scrum which could lead to all sorts of palaveration.