Positioning

[Rassie]

I am doing video analysis of rugby games part time so to speak. I do not do it professionally or that sorts but we do it to provide youngsters with a idea what players do in their roles and off the ball. Now this is a thing I don't see many people mention this on the internet but this a tactic I presume get taught to players at a certain "franchise" where to find a hole in the defense and to without much effort. Maybe this can show some referees out there making the same mistake in their positioning because I do not think they relealize they do it due to the speed of the game. All the players in action are all players from the same super rugby franchise and all of these examples lead to tries. I have lots more example but I think 4 is enough to show how its done.

Keep a eye on the referee standing in the defensive line

 

[damo]

Run at the referee is an old trick and usually quite effective.

Since I generally referee by myself without mic'ed up AR's I stay in the attacking side or just behind. It seems to work pretty well for me and gives me a good chance to see all that is going on in the backlines.

 

[Rassie]

Run at the referee is an old trick and usually quite effective.

Since I generally referee by myself without mic'ed up AR's I stay in the attacking side or just behind. It seems to work pretty well for me and gives me a good chance to see all that is going on in the backlines.

I note certain referees still go stand in that hole even after years of refereeing.

Other ones I picked up and this is todays flankers and their added job description these days. I used some examples of my own country for safety reasons.

Let me explain firstly how defensive systems work especially one like Australia. They like most teams use the In-out drift. The way the line drifts is not important to understand here but the cover coming across trying to cut you off. The 9 is used as a sweeper and he will run behind the line and if someone gets through will cover as the 2nd line. I am certain you all have seen all the times legend Georgy Gregan came across to make all those tackles from Wilson to Lomu. It was a great trademark of him.

Now this is the South African try from Perth 2009 scored by Jacque Fourie he went through untouched. Its a brilliant try if one is ball watching but it was actually clever orchestrated.

Look at the scrum the South African 6 holding on to the Aussie flanker.

As you can see the Aussie defenders start drifting but watch the 9. He is suppose to run back and across behind his line but he is not but actually moving forward. The slight wheel made the 8 not seeing play. When Spies broke at the back of the scrum the Aussie flanker wasn't going for him where the 9 had to commit rather than drift. Because that is happening the the angle back created a hole.

Here you can see 8 not actually seeing whats going on and 7 can't go for Spies as he was being held back by the SA 6.

There goes Fourie untouched and as you can see the 9 chasing dust there where he should have been in position to make the tackle on Fourie. Simple off the ball holding Rugby league style created that

Here is another one.

De Villiers coming back at the angle. Look at how cleverly Burger is blocking Pocock from making that tackle and being unsighted.

As you can see Pocock falling over trying to get rid of Burger where it was too late and De Villiers smashed over for a try.

You see this becoming a fashion in rugby and I knew it won't be long before someone starts complaining and Wayne Smith wrote a article about saying its going to mess up his stats.

I know its hard for referees to see it and I don't think a TMO would pick it up either as like most they are ball watching. You think referees should be trained in defensive systems and off the ball tactics or should we just turn a blind eye?

 

[rugbyslave]

Rassie, I have seen this many times, the problem is that a lot of teams use the referee as a blocker. The next problem is that most referees are taught to stand at the 45 degree angle from the attacking team’s side until we go close to the in goal. Things are evolving, when the ball is slow the referee will push himself into the defensive team’s offside line to push the defending team back, without shouting the team will retreat behind the referee whose back would be turned to the defending team. If the ball looks like it will be quick he will stay in the Chariot position and try not to get in the way, here is the crux of the matter a referee who finds the game is getting away from him will take the offside line route as he is worried about his speed to the next breakdown and the less AR's we have the more the referee needs to control the offside line and in so doing is making himself a target of the attacking team.

I do not see a problem with either choice, it depends on the referee and the game

 

[Davet]

All fascinating stuff, but where would you suggest the referee should stand?

Is there a place where he would be able to see the holding back of Gold 7 by Green 6 AND not be in anyone's way?

The Burger example is Obstruction pure and simple and should have been picked up immediately by the To3

 

[The Fat]

See a lot of elite refs use the chariot position. Needs good feel for where the first pass of the next phase is heading and whilst I can see advantages, I still seem to comment a few times a match watching the televised stuff that the ref is cutting down some options when a team wants to switch the attack so some elite refs still need to rethink continually using this position. Also see lots of D-Line positioning and I'm not a fan. I think it invites attackers to run at or near you. Have even heard defenders asking/telling the ref to get out of the way.
We are taught to position on the A-Line and I think that mostly that is far better than the D-Line.

 

[Davet]

http://www.irb.com/mm/document/training/0/rugbyrefinpractice_426.pdf


Originally by ARU and from 2004 - but still relevant

 

[jayrefwales]

I am new to senior refereeing and have just completed my 4th game. Feedback from my advisers is I am consistently standing in the scrum half position.

I have been advised not to watch the positioning of elite referees.

So is there any good ways to improve my positioning?

 

[Davet]

Take a look at the link in my post above.

 

[jayrefwales]

Thanks I think practice is going to be the key as well as this document

 

[Davet]

Use the document, and advice from others, on here, formal assessments etc as a guide and find what works for you - which is - as you say - down to practice.

 

[Simon Thomas]

and don't watch Elite Referees' positioning - their matches are played at a far greater pace, much higher levels of tactical awareness & predicted patterns than we experience, plus they always have two more pairs of eyes as ARs.

Try out what works for you, take advice from fellow refs and referee coaches/advisers and analyse what you are seeing and maybe what you are missing.

As for the OP - yes it happens and at all levels. At Elite referee levels the guys will be very aware of it and wherever possible avoid being used as blocker. At Community levels be aware and if it is a deliberate tactic adjust accordingly.

I am not in favour of the chariot position being adopted for solo refs (without ARs) and prefer attacking back foot, or if necessary just behind the defensive line if you have to now and again.

 

[Rassie]

All fascinating stuff, but where would you suggest the referee should stand?

Is there a place where he would be able to see the holding back of Gold 7 by Green 6 AND not be in anyone's way?

The Burger example is Obstruction pure and simple and should have been picked up immediately by the To3

The postion was actually concerning that hole for which half backs aimed for and how it is exploited especially from generation to generation.
The other pictures are just what is happening off the ball in rugby no one really spots as everyone is usually following the ball. The referee do not have eyes in the back of his head and he can't go call the TMO for every try so its I think its really up to the referee in preparing himself for the game. Like teams analyzed referees in the professional era it can be vice versa. Really do think a bit of extra knowledge into defensive systems used might actually help a bit for positioning. But that should really be the AR keeping a eye on that. No need for both AR to do ball watching. And both those examples are obstruction. THe Jacque Fourie try even if that happened before a referees eyes he would not blow it up as it looks like just a bit of hug and tug and nothing serious as he do not know what that hug and tug really created

For off the ball stuff that is purely rugby league tactics being used as flankers are now actually linebackers. They all do it. All the good at least. I do not blame teams for employing such tactics as defenders are always at a advantage in todays game.

 

[OB..]

The other pictures are just what is happening off the ball in rugby no one really spots as everyone is usually following the ball.

One of the first things for new referees to learn is that the ball never commits an offence. Therefore they should be watching the players, who do.

Obviously they need to know where the ball is, but the better referees also manage to keep an eye on what is happening off the ball eg winger offside when the fly half kicks. Most people only spot the winger well after he has started his chase, but the good referee looks as soon as he realises the fly half is about to kick. Similarly he does not watch the ball in the air. He does not have to position himself for a catch, and knows roughly when and where it will come down. So he briefly watches the kicker so as to catch the late tackle.

Top referees do spend time analysing what teams are trying to achieve in both attack and defence, but they can't get it right all the time.

 

[Davet]

The other pictures are just what is happening off the ball in rugby no one really spots as everyone is usually following the ball.

The ball never yet committed an offence.

Advice to refs is to ensure that they give themselves space - not to be right on top of the ball at all times, to ensure they look around and DON'T simply follow where the play is going - simpest example would be from a kick in open play, take a moment to watch the kicker and any potential late tackle before watching where the ball lands - it will be in flight for sufficiently long that you can do this. Whilst you are looking at the kicker you may well also, in the same glance see a teammate ahead of him.

At the elite level then I would be very surprised if refs did not look at the sort of video you talk about, and plan appropriate strategies.

At the grass roots level, which is where my interest and experience lies then this is harder, we are volunteers cramming some rugby into an already busy shedule - but again experience teaches many lessons, and supplemented by guides such as the one above and by help and advice from Match Observers we can only hope that refs keep on improving.


OB just seen yours above - gald we have some assessorial agreement...

 

[Daftmedic]

If it helps. I make sure I know the position of the ball at the break down then thankfully I am tall so I can pull back and make sure the defence/offence are behind the back foot and everyone is bound correctly.

 

[Wedgie]

I am not in favour of the chariot position being adopted for solo refs (without ARs)

Simon - why?

 

[Simon Thomas]

Simon - why?

because you do not have the back foot offside line identified (just an angled estimate), are detached from the contest for the ball, and lose sight of potential fringers - just for starters.

If you take a chariot position and don't miss anything fair enough, I would have no cause to raise it in the de-brief. But experience shows me you are likely to miss some offences from there.

Ask Terry Hall for his view on the use of that position ................

 

[Reindeer Flotilla]

and don't watch Elite Referees' positioning - their matches are played at a far greater pace, much higher levels of tactical awareness & predicted patterns than we experience, plus they always have two more pairs of eyes as ARs.

Exactly right. When you have a team of three, you can get away with positioning that doesn't work at the club level. I really try to avoid the chariot position, but find myself there once or twice a match. I also don't think most folks think about the extra movement involved with the chariot position. You move in to manage the tackle, then slide into the chariot, then run to the next tackle. When you're on the A-line, you can manage the tackle and move the A-line, putting yourself in better position for the next phase of play.

D-line can be tempting, but it makes it much harder to spot offsides by the backs, and the smart ones will cheat up if they see you consistently on the D-line. The only time it really makes sense to me is inside the 5 and in-goal—it's always nice when the ball is dotted down at your feet.

 

[Davet]

Or very occasionally when the defence has shown a tendency to creep past the back feet you can use the D line position to align them with you, set the line for them.

Occasionally.