[Ruck] Pulling a player forward

[Pita]

In going to ask for participation on my game yesterday as it may clarify above.

Several players on both sides of good ruck. Arriving defending gorilla reaches in and hauls a player from the attacking side over their own defending player and tosses the attacking player who was legally bound to the ruck to the side and behind said gorilla. Gorilla then binds into and drives their own defending player at front of ruck into hole created.

Attacking 9 got ball away so I didn't have to do anything, but my take on it is the defending player PULLED AN OPPONENT OFF THEIR FEET. This is a penalty for causing a player to be off their feet OR dangerous play, your choice. OR am I wrong?

 

[didds]

Same sanction whatever you choose isn't out? Take your pick?

Didds

 

[ChrisR]

16.3 (c) A player must not intentionally collapse a ruck. This is dangerous play.Sanction: Penalty kick

If said gorilla pulls the player down over the ball then he is in violation of 16.3(c) above.

Pulling the opponent out of the ruck is not prohibited, even if they go off their feet.

 

[Camquin]

If they lift and drop their opponent then 10.4(j) applies.

 

[ChrisR]

If they lift and drop their opponent then 10.4(j) applies.

10.4 (j) Lifting a player from the ground and dropping or driving that player into the ground whilst that player’s feet are still off the ground such that the player’s head and/or upper body come into contact with the ground is dangerous play.
Sanction: Penalty kick

Only if above.

 

[belhysys]

I was looking for this thread exactly

1- blue is above the ball with hands on the ball (legally), and red is pulling toward the red try line. Blue lose his footing and put hands on the floor sealing the ball. Based on the thread I am not sure if

16.3.c - collapsing the ruck? Blue PK
10.4.j - force upper body on the floor (are hands upper body?) - Blue PK
Blue is sealing - Red PK
just play on as the sealing is due to the clearing and not blue player. - Nothing


2 : if it is collapsing , what is the difference between clearing and collapsing. (away from the ball ? ) but can not find anything about this in the laws

thanks

 

[Rich_NL]

I'd call the first option - collapsing the ruck.

 

[irishref]

If we're ever asked for suggestions about improving or updating law verbiage, I would suggest to World Rugby that some text be added to law 16 that states players in a ruck can only push opponents, not pull nor roll them away to the side.

 

[ChrisR]

Belhyssys, welcome to the forum.

You will find a variety of views in this forum and some will be diametrically opposed. We are not spokespersons for World Rugby so if you are a referee our advice should not supersede that from your society.

As to your question 1: If Blue was in a legal stance and Red pulls him down over the ball then 'collapsing' is a fair call.

Question 2: As no specific law prohibits pulling an opponent forward then the difference between 'clearing' and 'collapsing' becomes access to the ball. See my post #23 above.

 

[Elpablo73]

If we're ever asked for suggestions about improving or updating law verbiage, I would suggest to World Rugby that some text be added to law 16 that states players in a ruck can only push opponents, not pull nor roll them away to the side.

I've never been a fan of the action of rolling an opponent to the side in a ruck.

 

[belhysys]

thanks Chris.

Completely agree on all your points

 

[winchesterref]

I've never been a fan of the action of rolling an opponent to the side in a ruck.

I think it stems from referees not rigidly enforcing players "endeavouring to stay on their feet" and 16.2 a/d as well. Players are so low down that a proper clear out becomes so much harder.

 

[Christy]

I was looking for this thread exactly

1- blue is above the ball with hands on the ball (legally), and red is pulling toward the red try line. Blue lose his footing and put hands on the floor sealing the ball. Based on the thread I am not sure if

16.3.c - collapsing the ruck? Blue PK
10.4.j - force upper body on the floor (are hands upper body?) - Blue PK
Blue is sealing - Red PK
just play on as the sealing is due to the clearing and not blue player. - Nothing


2 : if it is collapsing , what is the difference between clearing and collapsing. (away from the ball ? ) but can not find anything about this in the laws

thanks

hi belshy .
depending on age grade & how safe /unsafe situation has become .
i would look at playing advantage if ball is available . { at lower age grade i wouldnt , unless really safe & we on try line }
otherwise i agree , red collapsing ruck , blue penalty

 

[ChuckieB]

Not directly dealing with the OP but it comes under the banner of ruck clear outs generally!

RSA V NZ, as compelling as it was to watch, in hindsight I am thinking that this was a game that demonstrated much that could be deemed wrong with the ruck laws.

ruck is effectively collapsed, if it ever formed , and time after time players were diving in headfirst with no attempt even to contact the player other than barge the player off with the shoulder, arms flailing behind.

Was the pace of the game a factor or was Jerome Garces just being a bit lenient after his last experiences with the AB's. There seems to have been much missed with hands in, some attempted neck rolls, and I can't help but think it went beyond what I would deem as being acceptable as far as the laws, silent as they are, allow?

 

[Dixpat]

Not directly dealing with the OP but it comes under the banner of ruck clear outs generally!

RSA V NZ, as compelling as it was to watch, in hindsight I am thinking that this was a game that demonstrated much that could be deemed wrong with the ruck laws.

ruck is effectively collapsed, if it ever formed , and time after time players were diving in headfirst with no attempt even to contact the player other than barge the player off with the shoulder, arms flailing behind.

Was the pace of the game a factor or was Jerome Garces just being a bit lenient after his last experiences with the AB's. There seems to have been much missed with hands in, some attempted neck rolls, and I can't help but think it went beyond what I would deem as being acceptable as far as the laws, silent as they are, allow?

I agree with all of your comments

The divebombing into the rucks was laughable and even dangerous as were the twisting of bodies out of the rucks which were as close to neck rolls as you would see.

In my view JG appeared to be a ref without confidence and was more like a possum in the headlights.

The first NZ try was very problematic and I am sure he disagreed with the TMO but didn’t have the confidence to overrule him

 

[Pegleg]

If player are entering from the correct angles I find it diffucult to see how you can pull someone out of a ruck without pulling them on top of the ruck as you are pulling them from their side to yours over the bodies on the floor. I agree ther may be some legitimate chances but in general It is probable that the action will cause a collapse.