Quick Penalty before Yellow Card

[Davet]

Scrum shoved back 4.5 metres and turns to ratshit can understand the prop bailing to protect himself. I agree a YC in that case may be rather harsh.

Prop bails out of 5m scrum almost as soon as they engage would be a better chance of getting a YC as well as the PT

 

[Account Deleted]

I've only awarded 2 PTs from a collapsed scrum that went down after getting pushed back (around 6 weeks apart this season) and in those cases the whole thing went to ratsh!t. This, in my experience, is the norm. The prop under that is continually under pressure is typically either replaced or put in the bin earlier. The "pull the rabbit" YC to the FR player after the scrum goes down, even when you're already warned the skipper about his entire front row, is a rare occurrence (and up until Simon mentioned his example, I've never seen it).

It's not about being "above the law"; it's about the clear and obvious. Props on the end of a scrum that collapses after getting shoved back 4m arent trying to "get one over" on anyone; their scrum is utter garbage and they're trying to survive. They know the penalty try is on, so they get driven back and bail due to a lack of control or looking for safety. I'm the last one here to sympathize with a shitty scrum, but it's important that we dont go throwing fuel on the fire.

THe post I had issue with is this one (as already pointed out):

There's no chance in hell I'm awarding a yellow-card after I've awarded a penalty try for a collapsed scrum.

That's a bit too strong in my opinion. EACH incident needs to be judged under normal criteria. NOT on a "no chance in hell I'm awarding a yellow-card" basis.

 

[Bryan]

Prop bails out of 5m scrum almost as soon as they engage would be a better chance of getting a YC as well as the PT

Disagree on the penalty try. The scrum has barely moved at this point. There's no way to judge that a try probably would have been scored. In this scenario, I can easily sell the YC decision after a lot of storyboarding and passing the buck to the FR under-pressure, but a scrum that goes down right away post-hit isnt going to warrant a penalty try.

My point is that typically you do one or the other for the scrum that collapses; either it collapses right away, in which case if you're smart you've already sold putting a prop in the bin, OR it gets shoved all the way back, then crumples, in which case you can go under the posts for a penalty try. Other than Simon's case above, I've never seen a referee do both for a front-row player.

THe post I had issue with is this one (as already pointed out):

That's a bit too strong in my opinion. EACH incident needs to be judged under normal criteria. NOT on a "no chance in hell I'm awarding a yellow-card" basis.

In my opinion it isnt for this case, so we can agree to disagree.

 

[Davet]

Bryan - OK - to a point - but I was looking at a situation where the scrum had frequently crumbled under pressure - and then as soon as pressure comes on again - at 5m out the prop bails out. A YC is clear, but if that's it then they may go uncontested and the 5m scrum is no longer an option for the attackers instead of the PK. Mission accomplished perhaps by the bailing prop in the final minutes...

If there ref sees repeated evidence that the scrum is unable to withstand the pressure can he not take the view that, but for the prop bailing out, then a try was probable?

 

[Bryan]

Bryan - OK - to a point - but I was looking at a situation where the scrum had frequently crumbled under pressure - and then as soon as pressure comes on again - at 5m out the prop bails out. A YC is clear, but if that's it then they may go uncontested and the 5m scrum is no longer an option for the attackers instead of the PK. Mission accomplished perhaps by the bailing prop in the final minutes...

You've said "A YC is clear" but done nothing to justify a penalty try for that scrum. I recognize that the previous scrums had crumbled under pressure, but then maybe earlier was the time to award a Penalty Try. Too often I've heard (mainly commentators) talking about repeated infringements leading to a penalty try, which is utter bullshit. I'm probably preaching to the choir here, but the easier decision here is yellow-card only. The PT is a bridge too far.

If there ref sees repeated evidence that the scrum is unable to withstand the pressure can he not take the view that, but for the prop bailing out, then a try was probable?

He can do whatever he wants, but he has to support that decision and defend it. It's easy to do if the scrum collapses 0.5m from the goal-line; it's much harder to do (even with the past history) if the scrum collapses on contact. The view that I would take is that a prop is repeatedly infringing and is being temporarily suspended if the scrum goes down immediately.

 

[Davet]

Brian - I understand what you say, and clearly "probable try" is the defining issue.

it's much harder to do (even with the past history) if the scrum collapses on contact

Possibly, but not avoiding something because it may be hard, controversial, or even downright unpopular with my bosses is probably where I have gone wrong in life.