Quick Penalty before Yellow Card

Guyseep


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Imagine this situation:

Red team pressuring the Blue team's line. Several phases of play and then about 5m out Blue high tackles Red ball carrier, that warrants a YC. Referee blows for a penalty and before he can reach for the YC, Red scrum half takes a quick penalty tap and dives over and scores a try.

I would allow the try, but can you go back and issue the yellow card as well?
 

Chogan


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Yes.
I haven't had the pleasure of an attacking team being sharp enough to beat me to the card yet though.
 

pwhaling


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I've had this scenario a few times. No reason to kill attacking ball to issue a card.
Unless there is s major flashpoint brewing. If things are getting heated, stop the game, separate and get control..
( Remember, can't take the second one quick :D)
 

TNT88


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I would allow the try, but can you go back and issue the yellow card as well?

I certainly would. In fact, I often look to give advantage close to the line for foul play. (and give the card at the next stoppage)

Because imagine if I didn't and the teams picked up on it? Every time your opponent is about to score, just elbow someone in the head and the ref will stop the game. Either that, or they will quick tap/score and you get out of a yellow card!
 

Guyseep


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pwhaling:228681 said:
I've had this scenario a few times. No reason to kill attacking ball to issue a card.
Unless there is s major flashpoint brewing. If things are getting heated, stop the game, separate and get control..
( Remember, can't take the second one quick :D)

I imagine you are kidding about not taking the second pk quickly. I've had players and coaches say that but it's not in law.
 

pwhaling


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Guyseep:228687 said:
pwhaling:228681 said:
I've had this scenario a few times. No reason to kill attacking ball to issue a card.
Unless there is s major flashpoint brewing. If things are getting heated, stop the game, separate and get control..
( Remember, can't take the second one quick :D)

I imagine you are kidding about not taking the second pk quickly. I've had players and coaches say that but it's not in law.
Yes, that was my poor attempt at humour
 

Davet

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Cant's take the second one till the ref's made the mark.

You make the mark in your own time, but iRB say don't rush it.

But by the same token you don't have to delay it...
 

the magpie


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If I was getting ready to issue a YC, I would have immediately blown time off after blowing the penalty. That way, everyone knows that play has stopped.

If the referee motioned in anyway towards either the high tackler or the captain of blue, and then the SH takes a quick tap and scores, it would have to be called back, as the referee has taken a defender or two out of the line, even if it was beginning of a motion.

Given the scenario above, and assuming no defender has been motioned to approach the referee, award try, issue YC.

- - - Updated - - -

I've had this scenario a few times. No reason to kill attacking ball to issue a card.
Unless there is s major flashpoint brewing. If things are getting heated, stop the game, separate and get control..
( Remember, can't take the second one quick :D)

The only problem with this is that the high tackle could lead to another player coming in high in an attempt to stop a try. Deal with it quickly, but smartly.
 

didds

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Yes.
I haven't had the pleasure of an attacking team being sharp enough to beat me to the card yet though.


so you are happy that you have prevented possibilities to score in situations similar to the OP?


I see no issue with waiting a few seconds before whistling time off to deal with the YC. and providing QT opportunties if they are to be taken. Is there an issue with that? (I can think of 1... maybe).

didds
 

Dickie E


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In juniors we deal with foul play immediately and do not play advantage, allow quick taps, etc.

In seniors each case should be managed on its merit. But a ref who doesn't play advantage and/or allow a QT, should be comfortable explaining his reasoning to a captain or assessor. "I did it that way because I always do it that way" is probably not best practice.
 

Drift


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In juniors we deal with foul play immediately and do not play advantage, allow quick taps, etc.

In seniors each case should be managed on its merit. But a ref who doesn't play advantage and/or allow a QT, should be comfortable explaining his reasoning to a captain or assessor. "I did it that way because I always do it that way" is probably not best practice.

I will be using that line this year.
 

didds

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so you'll not be following what Dickie E suggests is best practise?

(and which you may summise, I agree with) ??

didds
 

Simon Thomas


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I am in agreement with Dickie E and expect the referee to manage each situation on its merits & context.

In the scenario set out in the OP :

At U18 level we have no choice but to blow a PK immediately for foul play/high tackle.

At adult levels signal the advantage, see what happens, if a try is scored great, if not come back to award the PK and be prepared for a quickie (even Chogan !), but be mindful of a potential flashpoint and ensuing brawl.
You can award the YC as and when you are ready to, and at a time most appropriate the the game in front of you. If it is after the score after advantage or a quick tap PK, tha is good management in my book. You would do the same in the case of a PT after you have gone under the posts (say after a deliberately collapsed maul / scrum 5m out).
 
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Bryan


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You would do the same in the case of a PT after you have gone under the posts (say after a deliberately collapsed maul / scrum 5m out).
There's no chance in hell I'm awarding a yellow-card after I've awarded a penalty try for a collapsed scrum.

#9 kicking ball out at the back as the ball is about to cross the goal-line - yes. PT + YC.
Flanker breaking off early and killing the ball when it's still in the scrum as the ball is about to cross the goal-line - yes. PT + YC.
Scrum that gets shoved 4.5m back, at which point the whole thing crumbles? - hell no. PT only.
 

Simon Thomas


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There's no chance in hell I'm awarding a yellow-card after I've awarded a penalty try for a collapsed scrum.

Bryan - I agree totally re a scrum shoved 4.5m and crumbles - NO YC. But a deliberate calculated collapse, yes potential YC in my book. But then we have the playing for "uncontested scrums" debate at L5 and lower in England.

I had a specific incident fresh to mind at L5 National League level I saw recently.

White dominant all match in FR with outstanding Tongan (a very big one) fresh off the recent Autumn International tour. He had seen off one red prop already, who had twice deliberate stood up under pressure, and had persistent refusal to bind - warned twice and about to get YC'd when he was replaced "as he was injured". He was in quite a state by then and had an ice pack on his neck for the rest of the match on the touchline.

Replacement red prop did ok, but more from Tongan easing up to avoid need for uncontested scrums if replacement YC or injured too.
Series of 5m scrums, first two immediate collapses on hit and then one crumbles (as you described) as white drove them back. Referee very patient and calm, managed it all well, and gave final warning to red skipper & FR. Scrum option taken again, and before the scrum had even moved as SH threw ball in red prop released bind, walked round and went straight down.

PT and YC awarded to Red #16 - last 10 minues played with uncontested scrums. White won by 8 point spread.
 

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There's no chance in hell I'm awarding a yellow-card after I've awarded a penalty try for a collapsed scrum.


10.2 UNFAIR PLAY
(a) Intentionally Offending. A player must not intentionally infringe any Law of the Game, or
play unfairly. The player who intentionally offends must be either admonished, or cautioned
that a send off will result if the offence or a similar offence is committed, or sent off.
Sanction: Penalty kick
A penalty try must be awarded if the offence prevents a try that would probably otherwise
have been scored. A player who prevents a try being scored through foul play must either
be cautioned and temporarily suspended or sent off.


Consider the following ruling:

RULING 9: 2004
Law Ruling by Designated Members of Laws Committee
23 December 2004
The IRFU has requested a ruling with regard Law 10-Foul Play and Law 22-In Goal Law 10 - Foul Play
Rewrite and amendment of 10.2(a), and consequential addition to Law 22.
The first paragraph states:
Intentionally Offending. A player must not intentionally infringe any Law of the Game, or play unfairly. The player who intentionally offends must be either admonished, or cautioned that a send off will result if the offence or a similar offence is committed, or sent-off. After a caution a player is temporarily suspended from the match for a period of ten minutes playing time. After a caution, if the player commits the same or similar offence, the player must be sent-off.
Penalty: Penalty Kick
The final paragraph states:
A penalty try must be awarded if the offence prevents a try that would probably otherwise have been scored. A player who prevents a try being scored through foul play must either be cautioned and temporarily suspended or sent off.
The final paragraph does not appear to offer the possibility of an 'admonishment' by the referee; nor does it refer to 'intentionally'.
The clarification sought is:
Is it the intention of the Law (as now rewritten) to ensure that in each and every circumstance, where a penalty try is awarded, that the offending player is temporarily suspended, whether or not the foul is intentional?
Is it the intention to remove the discretion of the referee to admonish, rather then temporarily suspend or send off a player in such circumstances? The reason clarification is sought is that there are circumstances where the offence is not intentional: e.g. mistimed (early or late, but not dangerous) tackle; unintentional instinctive high, but not dangerous, tackle - when an attacker steps inside a defender; certain incidences of scrum collapsing.
In these circumstances, the sanction of a penalty try, and a temporary suspension appear exceptionally severe. While it will not be a frequent occurrence, the effect on a match outcome could be hugely significant. It could also, in the event of a front row forward, lead to uncontested scrums. Finally, it would appear inconsistent for an offence which, taking place in mid-field, would not merit a temporary suspension but would merit a temporary suspension close to a goal-line.
The Designated Members have ruled the following in answer to the question raised:
Ruling
Law 10.2(a) is Unfair Play relating to Intentional Offending.
The two paragraphs in Law 10.2(a) must be read in conjunction, having due regard to the heading 'Intentionally Offending'.
Therefore, if a penalty try is awarded as the result of a player intentionally offending, then the player must be either be cautioned and temporarily suspended or sent off.
Examples of this would be after penalty tries resulting from:
• a collapsed scrum
• a collapsed maul
• a defending player intentionally offside
• a defending player intentionally knocking down the ball.
If a penalty try is awarded as the result of a player unintentionally offending, the player, as well as being liable to cautioning and temporary suspension or send off, can be admonished by the referee.
Examples of this may be after penalty tries resulting from:
• mistimed tackle (early or late, but not dangerous)
• unintentional reactionary high tackle, but not dangerous.
 

Bryan


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Law 10.2(a) and Ruling 9 of 2004

ATTR. You've quoted a law and a ruling with which I'm familiar.

Based on your quoted info, and considering this statement:

Bryan said:
Scrum that gets shoved 4.5m back, at which point the whole thing crumbles?


Who are you going to put in the bin?

I'm looking at this from a referee-protection and management scenario. Can you please identify why you want to hide behind a law on this one?
 

Phil E


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I'm looking at this from a referee-protection

Exactly. Clear, Obvious and Expected.
No one will expect a YC in that scenario. It's not clear or obvious who was responsible.
 

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ATTR. You've quoted a law and a ruling with which I'm familiar.

Based on your quoted info, and considering this statement:

Scrum that gets shoved 4.5m back, at which point the whole thing crumbles?

Who are you going to put in the bin?

I'm looking at this from a referee-protection and management scenario. Can you please identify why you want to hide behind a law on this one?

And I am commenting on this quote:

There's no chance in hell I'm awarding a yellow-card after I've awarded a penalty try for a collapsed scrum.


The two are not the same thing. If I can identify the culprit (clear and obvious - of course) then I'll card him if I can't he gets one over on me. No hiding behind the law. Rather I'm not putting myself above it.
 

Bryan


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The two are not the same thing. If I can identify the culprit (clear and obvious - of course) then I'll card him
I've only awarded 2 PTs from a collapsed scrum that went down after getting pushed back (around 6 weeks apart this season) and in those cases the whole thing went to ratsh!t. This, in my experience, is the norm. The prop under that is continually under pressure is typically either replaced or put in the bin earlier. The "pull the rabbit" YC to the FR player after the scrum goes down, even when you're already warned the skipper about his entire front row, is a rare occurrence (and up until Simon mentioned his example, I've never seen it).

It's not about being "above the law"; it's about the clear and obvious. Props on the end of a scrum that collapses after getting shoved back 4m arent trying to "get one over" on anyone; their scrum is utter garbage and they're trying to survive. They know the penalty try is on, so they get driven back and bail due to a lack of control or looking for safety. I'm the last one here to sympathize with a shitty scrum, but it's important that we dont go throwing fuel on the fire.

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