Quickly taken lineout

[RobLev]

Your rationale is presumably that it is an advantage because the opposition assume a quick lineout is not allowed. However if the opposition are wrong, that train of thought is not valid, and so there is not necessarily any advantage in the timing

It's not, actually. Firstly, the definition of a lineout includes the following:

[LAWS]All other players. All other players who are not taking part in the lineout must be at least 10 metres behind the line of touch, on or behind their goal line if that is nearer, until the lineout ends.[/LAWS]

So, quite apart from the offside law, players not taking part in the lineout who are within 10m of the line of touch are in the wrong place; the lineout law requires them to be behidn that 10m line.

Beyond that, a player can only be offside when the ball is in play. Taking a quickly taken lineout when your players are both offisde and not in the position required by lineout Law puts those players offside. The action that put them offside was presumably to their team's advantage, or the ball wouldn't have come in then; so their being in the position they're in when the lineout is taken quickly with the effect that they're offside is material.

 

[Pinky]

As I said in an earlier post, a QTLO is most likely to be as per a normal LO where all requirements have been met and the thrower just takes the throw as soon as all is in place without going through a series of calls or place changes by his Lineout players.
You have to remember that just having 2 opponents at the line of touch is not sufficient trigger for the throw. One of those players would have to be at 2 & 2 as a direct opponent to the thrower. Having 2 players from each team at the LoT is not a green light for the thrower, it just means that a QT is no longer an option.

No, one of the 2 does not need to be 2&2 as an opponent to the thrower. A lineout if formed by a minimum of 2 from each side - the opposition to the thrower is a requirement of the non-throwing side, and they are sanctionable if they do not comply, but advantage to the throwing team may apply.

 

[Pinky]

It's not, actually. Firstly, the definition of a lineout includes the following:

[LAWS]All other players. All other players who are not taking part in the lineout must be at least 10 metres behind the line of touch, on or behind their goal line if that is nearer, until the lineout ends.[/LAWS]

So, quite apart from the offside law, players not taking part in the lineout who are within 10m of the line of touch are in the wrong place; the lineout law requires them to be behidn that 10m line.

Beyond that, a player can only be offside when the ball is in play. Taking a quickly taken lineout when your players are both offisde and not in the position required by lineout Law puts those players offside. The action that put them offside was presumably to their team's advantage, or the ball wouldn't have come in then; so their being in the position they're in when the lineout is taken quickly with the effect that they're offside is material.

There are many situations where play can be restarted whilst players are offside and play continues as long as they don't interfere - quick tap penalty and f/k either ball carrying side or opponents can be offside and get back on side without sanction. 22 drop out also, QTI too, so I don't see a problem with a lineout happening before everyone is in the right place and would let play go on as long as none of the "offside" players were involved in the game before getting back onside.

 

[The Fat]

No, one of the 2 does not need to be 2&2 as an opponent to the thrower. A lineout if formed by a minimum of 2 from each side - the opposition to the thrower is a requirement of the non-throwing side, and they are sanctionable if they do not comply, but advantage to the throwing team may apply.

So ball kicked out by blue is touched by a spectator, so red 14 gathers the ball and sees there are 2 blue players near the line of touch and so motions to a couple of team mates to move close to line of touch. Meanwhile, blue 2 is jogging towards a position of 2&2 but is still 15 metres away when red 14 throws the ball in.
What you are saying is that you are now playing a FK advantage to red because Tubby 2 Blue couldn't run fast enough to get to 2 & 2 before the throw?

Actually, my previous post was incorrect in that the opposition would need 2 Lineout players plus an opponent of the thrower

 

[OB..]

The action that put them offside was presumably to their team's advantage, or the ball wouldn't have come in then; so their being in the position they're in when the lineout is taken quickly with the effect that they're offside is material.

Wrong way round. Is it a disadvantage to the opposition? That is the correct question. [LAWS]A player who is in an offside position is not automatically penalised.[/LAWS]

 

[RobLev]

Wrong way round. Is it a disadvantage to the opposition? That is the correct question. [LAWS]A player who is in an offside position is not automatically penalised.[/LAWS]

Point taken. But (i) we're not just talking about someone in an offside position; we're talking about players who are in the wrong place to take a lineout; and (ii) yes, the opposition is disadvantaged, in being unable to contest the lineout as they would have been able had the throwing in team got its players (a) in the right place and (b) not offside.

 

[crossref]

We know what the criteria are for taking a QTI (well, almost ...)
It would be nice if the laws filled in the blanks for a regular lineout in the same detailed fashion.

isn't that exactly what 19.8 does?

I think no line out can take place until all of 19.8 is satisfied, and if the non-throwing team attempt to delay then the sanction is specified -- it's a FK (NOT that the trhowing team can take it anyway)


[LAWS]19.8 Forming a lineout

The lineout
(a) Minimum. At least two players from each team must form a lineout.
Sanction: Free Kick on the 15-metre line

(b) Maximum. The team throwing in the ball decides the maximum number of players in the lineout.
(c)
The opposing team may have fewer lineout players but they must not have more.
Sanction: Free Kick on the 15-metre line

(d)
When the ball is in touch, every player who approaches the line of touch is presumed to do so to form a lineout. Players who approach the line of touch must do so without delay. Players of either team must not leave the lineout once they have taken up a position in the lineout until the lineout has ended.
Sanction: Free Kick on the 15-metre line

(e)
If the team throwing in the ball put fewer than the usual number of players in the lineout, their opponents must be given a reasonable time to move enough players out of the lineout to satisfy this Law.
Sanction: Free Kick on the 15-metre line

(f)
These players must leave the lineout without delay. They must move to the offside line, 10 metres behind the line of touch. If the lineout ends before they reach this line, they may rejoin play.
Sanction: Free Kick on the 15-metre line

(g) Failure to form a lineout. A team must not voluntarily fail to form a lineout.
Sanction: Free Kick on the 15-metre line

(h) Where the lineout players must stand. The front of the lineout is not less than 5 metres from the touchline. The back of the lineout is not more than 15 metres from the touchline. All lineout players must stand between these two points.
Sanction: Free Kick on the 15-metre line

(i) Where the receiver must stand. If a team uses a receiver, then that player, must be positioned at least 2m back from team mates in the lineout, and between the 5m and 15m lines, until the lineout begins.
Once the lineout has commenced, the receiver may move into the lineout and may perform all actions available to players in the lineout and is liable to related sanctions.
Sanction: Free kick on the 15 metre line along the line of touch

(j) Player between touch and 5 metres. The team not throwing in must have a player standing between the touchline and the 5-metre line on that team’s side of the line of touch when the lineout is formed. That player must stand 2 metres from the line of touch and 2 metres from the 5-metre line.
Sanction: Free Kick on the 15-metre line

(k)
Participating players in a lineout may change places before the ball is thrown.
(l) Two single straight lines. The lineout players of both teams form two single parallel lines each at right angles to the touchline.
Sanction: Free Kick on the 15-metre line

(m)
Opposing players forming a lineout must keep a clear space between their inside shoulders. This space is determined when players are in an upright stance.
Sanction: Free Kick on the 15-metre line

Metre gap. Each line of players must be half a metre on their side of the line of touch.
Sanction: Free Kick on the 15-metre line

(o)
The line of touch must not be within 5 metres of the goal line.
(p)
After the lineout has formed, but before the ball has been thrown in, a player must not hold, push, charge into, or obstruct an opponent.
Sanction: Penalty [/LAWS]

 

[ChrisR]

The question is this:

If the throwing team have all their players in legal positions and the ops have two in the lineout but others are milling about in disarray should the throwing team be allowed to proceed? That is a 'quickly taken lineout' for which there is neither definition nor guidance in the Laws.

 

[crossref]

The question is this:

If the throwing team have all their players in legal positions and the ops have two in the lineout but others are milling about in disarray should the throwing team be allowed to proceed? That is a 'quickly taken lineout' for which there is neither definition nor guidance in the Laws.

my answer is : no

if the oppo are confused/hopeless (eg kids) then have same patience
if the oppo are just slow (eg exhausted) then have a word, then if they do it again OR
if they are doing it deliberately as a tactic to slow up the lineout then it's a FK (which of course can be taken quickly)

it's never : just throw it in anyway.

 

[OB..]

isn't that exactly what 19.8 does?

I think no line out can take place until all of 19.8 is satisfied

The problem is that 19.6 does not say the thrower must wait for the opponents to be ready (nor does 19.8). It is perfectly possible to say the law specifies what each team must try to achieve before they can fully compete in the lineout.

I understand your view, and indeed it may be the better one, but it isn't the only one.

 

[The Fat]

my answer is : no

if the oppo are confused/hopeless (eg kids) then have same patience
if the oppo are just slow (eg exhausted) then have a word, then if they do it again OR
if they are doing it deliberately as a tactic to slow up the lineout then it's a FK (which of course can be taken quickly)

it's never : just throw it in anyway.

Agree 100%
In the laws there is no such beast as a QTLO.
It is either a Quick Throw or it is a Lineout.
If it is the latter, then there are certain requirements that must be met.
There is a minimum requirement of 2 LO players from each side and when there ARE 2 from each side at the LoT, the QTI is no longer an option. It is not a green light to throw the ball in.
If we have a normal LO and players are milling about, the referee manages the situation which may include dealing with numbers, telling the opposing hooker to stand at 2&2, telling the backs they're not back 10 yet, making sure the gap is maintained etc.
Why should the requirements of the LO be thrown out the window because one team has missed its opportunity for a QTI?

 

[ChrisR]

Why should a team that comes to the LOT with players positioned correctly have to wait for a disorganized side to get it's shit together?

 

[RobLev]

Why should a team that comes to the LOT with players positioned correctly have to wait for a disorganized side to get it's shit together?

It doesn't; that's why it gets a FK if the other team doesn't get its shit together.

 

[crossref]

Why should a team that comes to the LOT with players positioned correctly have to wait for a disorganized side to get it's shit together?

it doesn't - the Law specifically covers this
[LAWS]19.8(g) Failure to form a lineout. A team must not voluntarily fail to form a lineout.
Sanction: Free Kick on the 15-metre line[/LAWS]

You also have the generic
[LAWS]10.2(b) Time-wasting. A player must not intentionally waste time.
Sanction: Free Kick[/LAWS]

the fact that 10.2(b) this is, essentially, repeated in Law 19 shows that, for once, the Law makers are ahead of the game, and have specifically thought about this scenario, and the correct action when a disorganised side fails to form a lineout is NOT 'go ahead and throw it in anyway, that'll teach them' it's 'peep, FK'

 

[OB..]

There is a significant difference between failure to form a lineout, and failure to get there before the throwing team. That difference is not specifically covered in the law

 

[Pinky]

So ball kicked out by blue is touched by a spectator, so red 14 gathers the ball and sees there are 2 blue players near the line of touch and so motions to a couple of team mates to move close to line of touch. Meanwhile, blue 2 is jogging towards a position of 2&2 but is still 15 metres away when red 14 throws the ball in.
What you are saying is that you are now playing a FK advantage to red because Tubby 2 Blue couldn't run fast enough to get to 2 & 2 before the throw?

Actually, my previous post was incorrect in that the opposition would need 2 Lineout players plus an opponent of the thrower

What I am saying is I would not make red wait for blue 2 to get into position. That is a f/k offence against blue, although not one I would sanction if red had gone quickly with the throw.

 

[ChrisR]

it doesn't - the Law specifically covers this
[LAWS]19.8(g) Failure to form a lineout. A team must not voluntarily fail to form a lineout.
Sanction: Free Kick on the 15-metre line[/LAWS]

You also have the generic
[LAWS]10.2(b) Time-wasting. A player must not intentionally waste time.
Sanction: Free Kick[/LAWS]

the fact that 10.2(b) this is, essentially, repeated in Law 19 shows that, for once, the Law makers are ahead of the game, and have specifically thought about this scenario, and the correct action when a disorganised side fails to form a lineout is NOT 'go ahead and throw it in anyway, that'll teach them' it's 'peep, FK'

I don't see the need for a team to wait on the opponent and then wait for the referee to issue a warning then wait on the opponent and wait for a FK which they don't want.

Let them get on with the game. The opponents will respond to this strategy much more quickly and won't be harping about the ref nagging at them.

 

[RobLev]

I don't see the need for a team to wait on the opponent and then wait for the referee to issue a warning then wait on the opponent and wait for a FK which they don't want.

When the Law is changed, fine; but at the moment that isn't the way the Laws are written.

Let them get on with the game. The opponents will respond to this strategy much more quickly and won't be harping about the ref nagging at them.

 

[OB..]

When the Law is changed, fine; but at the moment that isn't the way the Laws are written.

You are entitled to your opinion ... and I will continue to disagree.

 

[crossref]

I don't see the need for a team to wait on the opponent and then wait for the referee to issue a warning then wait on the opponent and wait for a FK which they don't want.

Let them get on with the game. The opponents will respond to this strategy much more quickly and won't be harping about the ref nagging at them.

why warn ?