RC issued in the bunker

Ian_Cook


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Oxymoron alert!
Which one is the oxymoron

respected <> Murray Kinsella, or

journalist <> Murray Kinsella

I'd say its a triple oxymoron!

(Actually I feel the same way about Mark Reason. A friend of my once told me that he didn't think Mark Reason was a sports journalist's arse-hole. but I stood up for Mark and said that he was!)
 

Dickie E


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Msf..
 

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belladonna

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WR's announcement of their appeal:

Full judgement of the DC:

I'm wondering on what grounds they are going to appeal, though? Was the DC's interpretation of "never legal" flawed? Or their finding of a sudden and material change of direction incorrect? Or do they just not buy OF's cock-and-bull story about how he would never have tackled so high if TB hadn't been pushed into his path by JG?

I find it very odd the DC didn't interview any of the officials particularly the FPRO to ask why he wrote "no mitigation".
 

Marc Wakeham


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I don't think the FRPO opinion is really relevant, they weren't on the pitch and aren't on the panel

Of course his opinion is relevant. He made the Red Card call. Exactly the same as the Citing Officer. No he is no on the panel only the panel are. Nor is OF or his lawyer. But they were there to take part.

I find it very odd the DC didn't interview any of the officials particularly the FPRO to ask why he wrote "no mitigation".

Often the officials' opinions are only sent in and they are not "cross examined".
 

BikingBud


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WR's announcement of their appeal:

Full judgement of the DC:

I'm wondering on what grounds they are going to appeal, though? Was the DC's interpretation of "never legal" flawed? Or their finding of a sudden and material change of direction incorrect? Or do they just not buy OF's cock-and-bull story about how he would never have tackled so high if TB hadn't been pushed into his path by JG?

I find it very odd the DC didn't interview any of the officials particularly the FPRO to ask why he wrote "no mitigation".
Utter guff:
In support of that contention the player argued that there was a late change in the dynamics of the tackle resulting from contact between W20 and Jamie George (E2), which in turn resulted in a sudden and significant movement, a sudden and significant drop in W20’s head height, and a change in direction from W20.
For one OF couldn't even think about that never mind articulate the discussion.
Secondly the video for almost everyone else on the planet shows a distinctly different dynamic.
Given the Player’s concessions, the central issue for determination by the Judicial Committee was whether, on the balance of probabilities, the FPRO was wrong, by not applying any mitigation under the HCP to reduce the high degree of danger to a level below the Red Card Test.
How is there any probability to balance, you either believe what you saw or you need a season ticket for supersavers. Balance of probabilities may be when there is only verbal evidence to opine upon but when there is prima facie evidence there is not a probability it is there to be viewed, on the video footage.
that mitigation should be applied to the high degree of danger found by the FPRO.
So clearly setting policy that dangerous play can be mitigated!!

When commenting upon the video footage:
As W20 comes into contact with the Player there is some lowering of his body. However, we do not consider this to be a sudden and significant drop in W20’s body height for the purpose of applying mitigation under the HCP.
Interesting perspective I always felt E10 hit W20!! But they are also considering that there was no mitigation!!!
Before W20’s contact with E2, the Player is positioned to make a legal tackle on W20
Really!

In our respectful opinion the FPRO was in error by omitting to consider the late change in dynamics due to E2’s interactions in the contact area with W20 which, in our opinion, brought about a sudden and significant change in direction of W20 (the ball carrier).
Shock hour rugby is a dynamic game, remember Jason Robinson and Shane Williams, renowned for skinning defenders in a post box!! Surely every side step and jink is a sudden and significant change of direction, the onus is on the tackler to execute the tackle safely.

Here comes the bus🚌🚌🚌🚌🚌🚌🚌🚌🚌 well a whole fleet of buses really:
In any such case, the Disciplinary Committee or Judicial Officer shall not make a finding contrary to the decision of the referee or Citing Commissioner unless they are satisfied, on the balance of probabilities that the decision of the referee or Citing Commissioner was wrong.
and
Under the section headed “Mitigation” the following, relevant to this incident, appears:
  •  Sudden/significant drop in height or change in direction from ball carrier
  •  A late change in dynamics due to another player in the contact area
  •  No time to adjust
But there wasn't any "sudden and significant drop in height" but then there was some sidestep type kind of action. How can you differentiate? So any head contact sanction now is doomed to failure, whenever there is any other player that may have touched them, even if it was a 🧚‍♀️ touch.
And perhaps the most telling part:
In contrast, the FPRO was required to make his decision in a matter of minutes without the benefit of all the relevant material including, importantly, hearing from the Player and his legal representative.
Quacking and waddling.
 
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BikingBud


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I don't think the FRPO opinion is really relevant, they weren't on the pitch and aren't on the panel

Of course his opinion is relevant. He made the Red Card call. Exactly the same as the Citing Officer. No he is no on the panel only the panel are. Nor is OF or his lawyer. But they were there to take part.


Often the officials' opinions are only sent in and they are not "cross examined".
Isn't the FPRO's option the most relevant one to be discussed and cross examined.

How can you come to a "balance of probabilities" argument if you have not discussed the decision with the person that made the decision.

Still quacking and waddling!

🦆🦆🦆🦆🦆🦆🦆🦆🦆🦆🦆🦆🦆🦆🦆
 

Dixpat

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In contrast, the FPRO was required to make his decision in a matter of minutes without the benefit of all the relevant material including, importantly, hearing from the Player and his legal representative.

It seems like this “learned“ panel are now saying that before a FPRO can upgrade a YC to RC the FPRO needs to hear what the player and his legal beagle have to say.
 

BikingBud


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In contrast, the FPRO was required to make his decision in a matter of minutes without the benefit of all the relevant material including, importantly, hearing from the Player and his legal representative.

It seems like this “learned“ panel are now saying that before a FPRO can upgrade a YC to RC the FPRO needs to hear what the player and his legal beagle have to say.
So the admission is that the bunker will get it wrong, what value the bunker when on its first use it is found to be so inaccurate. Else stop the game, wheel them all in to the bus, review all the angles, disagree and then..................

Or we could just accept that we want a high tempo game, not American Football, because playing quickly and putting the opposition under stress and fatigue generates mistakes which the fitter, better prepared and better executing team should be able to exploit. And we give the power back to the referee, after all if the decision is going to be wrong lets get it wrong quickly and get on with the game rather than this new charade.

Perhaps the player should have their legal rep on the pitch to ensure they make the correct tactical decisions as well.
 

Marc Wakeham


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Isn't the FPRO's option the most relevant one to be discussed and cross examined.

How can you come to a "balance of probabilities" argument if you have not discussed the decision with the person that made the decision.

Still quacking and waddling!

🦆🦆🦆🦆🦆🦆🦆🦆🦆🦆🦆🦆🦆🦆🦆
Indeed!
 

crossref


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Isn't the FPRO's option the most relevant one to be discussed and cross examined.
I don't see why?
The FPRO has no information that is not available to the panel, they just watched the videos.
The panel have to make up their own mind
 

belladonna

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There was a far more sudden and significant change in direction of the BC in Gilchrist's tackle on Jalonch in the 6N earlier this year, and the RC not only stood but there was a three match ban to boot.

I bet Gilchrist is wishing he'd had OF's legal team.

 

belladonna

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I don't see why?
The FPRO has no information that is not available to the panel, they just watched the videos.
The panel have to make up their own mind

If I'd been on the panel I'd have wanted to ask him:

Me: Did you see this video?
FPRO: Yes.
Me: Did you consider the sudden and significant change in direction of the BC?
FPRO: Erm... what sudden and significant change in direction are you on about?!?
Me: Why did you write "no mitigation" in your report?
FPRO: Because there was no sudden drop or change in direction, and because - more importantly - with no wrap, the actions of OF were always illegal.
 

Decorily

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If I'd been on the panel I'd have wanted to ask him:

Me: Did you see this video?
FPRO: Yes.
Me: Did you consider the sudden and significant change in direction of the BC?
FPRO: Erm... what sudden and significant change in direction are you on about?!?
Me: Why did you write "no mitigation" in your report?
FPRO: Because there was no sudden drop or change in direction, and because - more importantly - with no wrap, the actions of OF were always illegal.
Were you the FPRO?
 

crossref


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If I'd been on the panel I'd have wanted to ask him:

Me: Did you see this video?
FPRO: Yes.
Me: Did you consider the sudden and significant change in direction of the BC?
FPRO: Erm... what sudden and significant change in direction are you on about?!?
Me: Why did you write "no mitigation" in your report?
FPRO: Because there was no sudden drop or change in direction, and because - more importantly - with no wrap, the actions of OF were always illegal.
But the thing is the panel will be interviewing witnesses to establish the facts .

Not to find out whether the witnesses think it's a RC or not

The referee on the pitch may have some facts to offer (an eye witness view from a different angle , or perhaps something said ) so worth hearing from him.

But the FPRO doesnt have any facts to offer at all. (they just watched the same video).

It doesn't really matter what they thought was important ...they aren't on the panel
 

BikingBud


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Really not very becoming to personalise it like this!
It is not personalising it, the statement says the player, ie OF. So you think OF did think and say that? He can't string a thought together after the game, that's the fact. So more likely the extremely expensive and highly competent barrister that was the players rep came up with that?
 

Marc Wakeham


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But the thing is the panel will be interviewing witnesses to establish the facts .

Not to find out whether the witnesses think it's a RC or not

The referee on the pitch may have some facts to offer (an eye witness view from a different angle , or perhaps something said ) so worth hearing from him.

But the FPRO doesnt have any facts to offer at all. (they just watched the same video).

It doesn't really matter what they thought was important ...they aren't on the panel
THe FPRO is a trained expert and the person who made the call. What bit of this are you not getting or Did you think you'd walked into the wrong forum?

 

crossref


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I think you are misunderstanding the process

The panel is not an appeal court overturning a previous judgement

The panel *is* the "court".
It proceeds by establishing the facts, checking the law, hearing submissions and then forms the judgement
 
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