Rear pod over 15m line

[Yaweesh]

On a couple of occasions last week against the All Blacks, the rear pod of the Scottish lineout shuffled back beyond the 15m line before the ball was thrown. The referee seemed to let this go.

This weekend against South Africa, the same tactic resulted in a try, as the receiver had a huge gap to get through.

1. Is going beyond the 15m before the throw a FK ? (I realise the timing of the throw is the critical factor).

2. How is this refereed generally.

Many thanks.

 

[Dixie]

The lineout takes place between the 5m and 15m lines. leaving this limited channel constitutes leaving the lineout early, which is indeed a FK offence:

[LAWS]19.8d) When the ball is in touch, every player who approaches the line of touch is presumed to do so to form a lineout. Players who approach the line of touch must do so without delay.
Players of either team must not leave the lineout once they have taken up a position in the lineout until the lineout has ended.Sanction: Free Kick on the 15-metre line[/LAWS]

How is it refereed? Loosely! (or losely, for those who feel there is now no distinction between these words :wink

 

[Taff]

1. Is going beyond the 15m before the throw a FK ? (I realise the timing of the throw is the critical factor).

I would say they couldn't go beyond the 15m line until the LO was over. Yes, it's a FK offence (unless it's Repeated Infingement - in which case it's a PK) but unless it's "material" would opt for a word first. In my opinion ATP applies - ie Ask, Tell, Penalise. If it was "material" and in the S. Africa game it sounds as if it was, that changes everything - FK on the 15m line.

 

[Davet]

If your own throw:

Before the ball is thrown then stepping beyond the 15 is a FK.
After the ball is thrown then unless the ball is thrown beyond the 15 then it's a PK

If opponents throw:

Before the ball is thrown then stepping beyond the 15 is a FK.
After the ball is thrown, then unless the throwers have stepped infield of the 15, it's a PK

 

[menace]

The lineout takes place between the 5m and 15m lines. leaving this limited channel constitutes leaving the lineout early, which is indeed a FK offence:

[LAWS]19.8d) When the ball is in touch, every player who approaches the line of touch is presumed to do so to form a lineout. Players who approach the line of touch must do so without delay.
Players of either team must not leave the lineout once they have taken up a position in the lineout until the lineout has ended.Sanction: Free Kick on the 15-metre line[/LAWS]

How is it refereed? Loosely! (or losely, for those who feel there is now no distinction between these words :wink

So what about a long throw? Ie 19.14 j
[LAWS]
(f) Long throw-in. If the player who is throwing in throws the ball beyond the 15-metre line, a player taking part in the lineout may run infield beyond the 15-metre line as soon as the ball leaves the hands of the player throwing in.
If this happens, an opponent may also run infield. If a player runs infield to take a long throw in, and the ball is not thrown beyond the 15-metre line, this player is offside and must be penalised.
Sanction: Penalty kick on the 15-metre line[/LAWS]

So I assume the players can move infield past 15m line once the ball leaves hookers hands, in anticipation that there is a long throw and therefore are doing so before the lineout has technically ended, but the law allows it and ref has to hold back on blowing the whistle in case ball does in fact go long. But what if ball doesn't get thrown past 15m after all? As i read it those players that have moved infield past 15m AND ball doesn't get to them have now infringed? PK?
Have I got that right?

If i am correct then it seems from the original OP that Scotts should have been PK (bit more punitive than fk).

 

[menace]

Damn. Was putting that together when davet posted!

 

[Dixie]

If your own throw:

Before the ball is thrown then stepping beyond the 15 is a FK.
After the ball is thrown then unless the ball is thrown beyond the 15 then it's a PK

If opponents throw:

Before the ball is thrown then stepping beyond the 15 is a FK.
After the ball is thrown, then unless the throwers have stepped infield of the 15, it's a PK

Damn. Was putting that together when davet posted!

Good spot. Yes, in those cases the PK is for offside, as the players outside the Lineout Zone are offside, being in front of the offside line for non-participating players 10m back. So the PK is on the offside line for the backs. (He says confidently, expecting dissenting voices)

 

[Davet]

Dissenting voice duly supplied.

If it is a back who advances, and the ball doesn't go long then the Pk s indeed on the backs offside line, in line with the offence (but min 15m in) - so you are Ok there.

BUT

If it's a lineout player, then the PK is on LoT in 15.

If both teams get is wrong then ping the throwing team (since the opponents are allowed to copy only - and they have no control over the throw).

Interestingly, it would seem that if the non-throwers do either of these when the throwers do not - then regardless of where the ball ends up they are liable to penalty... since they non-throwers can only react (in these terms) to a throwing team move, not initiate one.

 

[Yaweesh]

Thanks for the replies.

Both the throwing team's rear pod and the defending team's pod shuffled back beyond the 15m, and the ball was thrown and caught beyond the 15m. It does seem to happen frequently, so I guess it is just "managed" ?

It does open up quite a gap between the rear pod and any middle pod though, I'd be tempted to try and distinguish between when it is just poor technique, and when it's a deliberate ploy to create a gap, (the receiver bursting through the gap for a try might be a clue !).

Regards.

 

[Davet]

Both the throwing team's rear pod and the defending team's pod shuffled back beyond the 15m, and the ball was thrown and caught beyond the 15m. It does seem to happen frequently, so I guess it is just "managed" ?

Assuming the shuffleback was initiated by the throwers, your post says that the ball was actually thrown long - and so this is perfectly legal.

 

[Davet]

It does open up quite a gap between the rear pod and any middle pod though, I'd be tempted to try and distinguish between when it is just poor technique, and when it's a deliberate ploy to create a gap, (the receiver bursting through the gap for a try might be a clue !).

Which is why if the throwing team do it when the ball doesn't go long, and thus they create a gap - then you PK them.

 

[ChrisR]

Timing. If the rear pod don't get beyond the 15 until the ball is thrown (and it goes beyond 15) then no problem. Your judgement.

 

[L'irlandais]

...Both the throwing team's rear pod and the defending team's pod shuffled back beyond the 15m, and the ball was thrown and caught beyond the 15m. ...

Hi Yaweesh,
Scotland vs All Blacks - Full Match.

Scotland had 11 Line-outs, could you narrow it down a bit for us :

Perhaps this one at 47 minutes of play? attacking LO on the AB's 5m line - threw to the back. Lost possession.

 

[Yaweesh]

Hi Yaweesh,
Scotland vs All Blacks - Full Match.

Scotland had 11 Line-outs, could you narrow it down a bit for us :

Thanks,

I haven't watched the replay of the AB game yet - not sure I can bear it beyond after the first 15 mins ! - but I'll see if I can find the ones that looked dodgey from where I was sitting.

The one that the try against SA came from is here: at 2.05 - though the angle isn't good to see the feet position vs timing of the throw. At 2.21 you can see how far beyond the 15m line the ball was caught though - and 21 hitting the resulting hole.
http://www.rugbydump.com/2012/11/2861/scotland-vs-springboks-highlights-november-2012

 

[Davet]

Perfectly legal - ball was thrown long, players moved long to take it, and the gap, as you say, was created brilliantly.

 

[Yaweesh]

Actually - its clearer in the full match video at 0:58:10. http://www.rugbydump.com/2012/11/2869/scotland-vs-south-africa-november-2012-full-match

Hopefully this jpg will show it.

 

[Davet]

AHHHH!

Now that view shows a FK was the right call - the Scots moved beyond the 15 before the ball was thrown

 

[Yaweesh]

Sorry Davet, our posts overlapped.

I guess we're agreeing it is a matter of timing. Side-on - it looked like they were beyond the 15m well before the ball was thrown. Would you normally ping that or manage it ?

Many thanks.

 

[Taff]

... Now that view shows a FK was the right call - the Scots moved beyond the 15 before the ball was thrown

So they must stay inside the 15m line until the ball is thrown - FK offence if they dont. After the ball is thrown, they can go outside the 15m line BUT if the ball doesn't cross the 15m line they are offside - ie a PK offence on the 15m line.

... I guess we're agreeing it is a matter of timing. Side-on - it looked like they were beyond the 15m well before the ball was thrown. Would you normally ping that or manage it?

IMO it depends if it was material.

• If it was immaterial - ATP applies
• If it was material - FK.

 

[Davet]

Seems pretty material when you score a try through the gap the move created.

But would ruin the TV viewing...