Receiver joining lineout before throw (and numbers!)

[Browner]

Would referees allow an attacking team to throw without a receiver?

didds

I think Law expects a receiver to be in position at formation, the same as it does for a defending hooker.

Thereafter receiver can join the line, and the throwing hooker can fill the space the receiver has vacated.

 

[didds]

I think Law expects a receiver to be in position at formation, the same as it does for a defending hooker.

Thereafter receiver can join the line, and the throwing hooker can fill the space the receiver has vacated.

yerss... but presumably if the attacking side are in formation and throw before rthe defenders ahave gotten into place ("quickly taken") a ref isn't going to stop their tactical advantage through snappy orgainsation to insist on a defending receiver? Whereas he might insist on an attacking receiver (?)

didds

 

[Waspsfan]

Nothing wrong with having no receiver. In your scenario the numbers match and no need to sanction.

Don't believe me - turn to Sky Sports right now. IRB sevens is on, almost never see a receiver in the lineout - and there are absolutely no sevens variations regarding the lineout.

 

[OB..]

I think Law expects a receiver to be in position at formation, the same as it does for a defending hooker.

The law specifies that the defending team MUST have a player in the 5m area. It does not say they must have a receiver, just that he must be 2+m from the lineout (if there is one). That last bit in brackets is not in the law, but is a valid interpretation, and is the one that has generally been accepted when this subject has come up before.

 

[didds]

which begs the question (and apologies of this has been discussed before and I have forgotten) does this mean the throwing side cannot throw in UNTIL the defending side has put someone in the 5m channel? ie they cannot "quickly take" a lineout until this player is there, and so the defenders can always put this player in last in order to control the pace of the game.

Or is a QT on until such time as that player arrives (and that is surely wrong? ie 2 players from each side in place is sufficient to stop the QT?)

didds

 

[OB..]

I have always argued that once the throwing team have met their legal requirements, they do not have to wait for their opponents (except for reductions in numbers). If they choose not to they accept the consequences.

 

[Browner]

The law specifies that the defending team MUST have a player in the 5m area. It does not say they must have a receiver, just that he must be 2+m from the lineout (if there is one). That last bit in brackets is not in the law, but is a valid interpretation, and is the one that has generally been accepted when this subject has come up before.

Thnks OB, I've read the subtle wording difference and can see the ]"must have a player" difference between (i) & (j) in 19.8

TBH Ive not had a team line up without a receiver in last two seasons.

 

[Taff]

... What is not clear, and what I couldn't understand from this thread so far, was the ruling regarding numbers.
To pose the scenario that occurred:

4 Men in lineout from attacking team with no receiver. Matched by 4 from defending side + receiver. Are the defending team violating the numbers rules?

I would say the opposition were allowed 4 + receiver.

 

[viper492]

Cheers Taff and Roblev

Our ruling at the time was that playing without a receiver meant that the opposition were still allowed match numbers + receiver so I'm glad to hear some agreement


Edit: Fix spelling

 

[lawsons]

Sorry I'm a bit lost. Throwing in team have called a two man line out. This is matched by the defending team. I won't now allow the receiver to join and make 3 man, without someone dropping out. The only way I'll allow the throwing in side to add a receiver is to have a 'full' line out i.e. 8 players.

If the throwing in side want a reduced number line out, they need to specify it before the line out to give the defending side a chance to match numbers. By doing that they can't then change their mind without giving the opposition time to match. You'll then have 3 vs 3+1. What benefit is that ?

So in reality I have never seen this and don't anticipate seeing it. Is this a US only thing and if so, I don't see any benefit to it.

 

[chbg]

Receiver, in the receiver's position until the ball leaves the thrower's hands, does not count for 'numbers'.

A receiver is part of the line out, but is not a line out player. Therefore he/she can join/leave the line out (in the receiver position) at any stage.

Both as a player and referee I see no requirement for the throwing in side to verbally declare (deliberate split infinitive) a reduced line out. "Decide" (19.8(b)) is a mental action word. The next stage is to "put in" fewer than the usual number of players (19.8(e)); the opponents must be given a reasonable time to move players out (19.8(e)). It is a matter of interpretation whether this requires the throwing in side NOT to throw in until reasonable time has passed, or whether the referee will not penalise the non-throwing side until reasonable time has passed for them to react.

 

[The Fat]

Sorry I'm a bit lost. Throwing in team have called a two man line out. This is matched by the defending team. I won't now allow the receiver to join and make 3 man, without someone dropping out. The only way I'll allow the throwing in side to add a receiver is to have a 'full' line out i.e. 8 players.

If the throwing in side want a reduced number line out, they need to specify it before the line out to give the defending side a chance to match numbers. By doing that they can't then change their mind without giving the opposition time to match. You'll then have 3 vs 3+1. What benefit is that ?

So in reality I have never seen this and don't anticipate seeing it. Is this a US only thing and if so, I don't see any benefit to it.

Throwing in team (Blue) have 3 players in the LO. They also have a receiver.
Opposition (Red) team have the same.

Scenario 1:
Before the ball is thrown in, Blue receiver joins his other three LO players. One of those other three LO players MUST drop back to the receiver's position.
Ball is then thrown in.
Note: If blue team only put two players in the lineout, there is no reason to have the receiver "change" places with a LO player at this stage.

Scenario 2:
Before the ball is thrown in, Blue has three LO players + the receiver.
As the lineout begins (ball leaves throwers hands), blue receiver runs into the LO. In this instance, NO player already in the LO is required to drop out. The blue team now has four lineout players but no receiver.
Red team still have three LO players + a receiver. Play on. Red have the opportunity to mirror what blue does.

 

[andyscott]

I cant believe you are all taking 4 pages to discuss this
http://www.irblaws.com/index.php?domain=10&clarlaw=19&clarification=4

or now in law

Where the receiver must stand. If a team uses a receiver, then that player, must be positioned at least 2m back from team mates in the lineout, and between the 5m and 15m lines, until the lineout begins.

Once the lineout has commenced, the receiver may move into the lineout and may perform all actions available to players in the lineout and is liable to related sanctions.

Line out begins with a throw.

 

[The Fat]

I cant believe you are all taking 4 pages to discuss this
http://www.irblaws.com/index.php?domain=10&clarlaw=19&clarification=4

or now in law

Where the receiver must stand. If a team uses a receiver, then that player, must be positioned at least 2m back from team mates in the lineout, and between the 5m and 15m lines, until the lineout begins.

Once the lineout has commenced, the receiver may move into the lineout and may perform all actions available to players in the lineout and is liable to related sanctions.

Line out begins with a throw.

Are you saying that my Scenario 1 in post #32 is not legal?

 

[andyscott]

Throwing in team (Blue) have 3 players in the LO. They also have a receiver.
Opposition (Red) team have the same.

Scenario 1:
Before the ball is thrown in, Blue receiver joins his other three LO players. One of those other three LO players MUST drop back to the receiver's position.
Ball is then thrown in.
Note: If blue team only put two players in the lineout, there is no reason to have the receiver "change" places with a LO player at this stage.

The numbers do not matter.

2 or 14 (attacking team)

The receiver can swap places before the ball is thrown. They cannot add numbers once the line is set, (unless the ball is thrown) then the receiver can join the line. In practice a very very high lobbed ball to the back, otherwise its too early.

 

[Dixie]

Sorry I'm a bit lost. Throwing in team have called a two man line out. This is matched by the defending team. I won't now allow the receiver to join and make 3 man, without someone dropping out. The only way I'll allow the throwing in side to add a receiver is to have a 'full' line out i.e. 8 players.

If I've read this right, I believe it is incorrect. I suspect, however, that I must have read it wrong.

When both teams line up with 2+receiver, you are quite correct to prevent the receiver joining without someone else dropping back - but this is only accurate until the ball leaves the thrower's hands, when the receiver can join the line at will. I suspect you know this, but you then go on to say:

The only way I'll allow the throwing in side to add a receiver is to have a 'full' line out i.e. 8 players.

However you read this, it has to be incorrect. Firstly, a conventional "full" lineout is 7 players not 8 - the hooker throwing in and his fellow forwards. Whether they choose to field a receiver is optional, and doesn't affect the numbers in the conventional lineout. Of course, a "full" lineout is actually made up of the hooker throwing in and all his team mates, so it comprises 14 lineout players. But even if the conventional lineout is used, once it has formed it would be illegal to add a receiver, as he has inevitably delayed in approaching the line of touch:

[LAWS]19.8(d) When the ball is in touch, every player who approaches the line of touch is presumed to do so to form a lineout. Players who approach the line of touch must do so without delay. Players of either team must not leave the lineout once they have taken up a position in the lineout until the lineout has ended.
Sanction: Free Kick on the 15-metre line[/LAWS]

But what is the situation for a 5-man or 4-man lineout? You imply that it is different than the "full" lineout, but in fact it is not. Anything you can do in a full lineout you can do in a reduced (or extended) lineout.