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Davet

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Gouge.jpg

When the ref doesn't see the foul play he cannot take a lot of action, but if you saw an injury like this on the pitch would you want to talk to the captains and begin to lay down some basic principles, such as, if I see something like this then it will be a red card and I would anticipate a very lengthy ban; and trust me - I WILL be looking very hard from now on, or would you simply say I saw nothing and thus can do and say nothing.
 

Drift


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I agree with your sentiments, 9/10 if a gouge has happened one player will tell his captain and therefore it would get back to me. Time off, lay down the law to the captains and watch out as much as I can.
 

Dickie E


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if I see something like this then it will be a red card and I would anticipate a very lengthy ban; and trust me - I WILL be looking very hard from now on, YES

or would you simply say I saw nothing and thus can do and say nothing. NO

The ref should make a big show with this type of issue to demonstrate to the non-offending team that he/she is on top of it. To do nothing will lead to anarchy before the final whistle.
 

Dickie E


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I agree with your sentiments, 9/10 if a gouge has happened one player will tell his captain and therefore it would get back to me. Time off, lay down the law to the captains and watch out as much as I can.

And if you have ARs, get them looking too.
 

OB..


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You certainly need to talk to the captains, but beware of jumping to possibly false conclusions. You want to calm things down not stir them up.
 

TheBFG


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I had a situation 2 weeks back where a player took a boot to the head (small cut, but look bad!) I didn't see the player that did it!

While the player was being treated i called the captains over and spoke to them both..... Capt of players that caused the injury (i think), you need to speak to your players and get control of their discipline!

To the other Capt....... I didn't see who did that, if i had i would have dealt with it, that said i don't want your side taking things into their own hands, understand?
 

oldman


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Be aware that a gouge like the one shown as with a bite is not necessarily caused by the opposing team. Major bollocking yes but to both side not just one.
 

Simon Thomas


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Sounds advice in above posts.

Acknowledge the complainant's concerns, stress to both skippers to maintain highest standards of discipline, and that you will proiritise looking for repeat offences for the rest of the game and will consider any sanction for anyone caught from either team.
 

Dickie E


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I remember running touch as an AR a few seasons ago and saw what may have been an eye gouge. But from 20 metres away, who could be sure? I didn't flag the incident.

On reflection I think I would have:

1. noted number & colour of the 2 players
2. hung the flag
3. tell the ref what I had seen & ask him to inspect the eye area for injury
4. if injury apparent - continue with the foul play report
5. if no injury apparent - discontinue with the foul play report

Thoughts?
 

KML1

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Interesting options Dickie although not sure it would aid credibility of you to the Ref or the Team of 3 to any spectators.

Worth considering though.

Also, you can have an eye gouge without any apparent injury.

The more I write, the less comfortable I am with it. You either see it or you don't and advise ref accordingly.

Straying back to the original point, and as others have alluded, you have to be careful in assuming the culprit was on the opposition side. I had an incident where a prop pointed out a bite mark on his forearm. His own side prop told me afterwards he'd done it himself and he'd done that before!!! Was before I grew up "reffing" wise so I didnt do anything with that pearl!! Nowadays, Id have cited him myself!
 

Taff


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Be aware that a gouge like the one shown as with a bite is not necessarily caused by the opposing team.
Forgive me gents, but how do you know it's a "gouge"?

Just looks like a serious black eye to me. Happens pretty regularly and doesn't necessarily indicate Foul Play.

One of my boys team mates (a No 8) collects about 4 of those a year. In fact it got so common we started keeping and comparing photos to decide which one was best.
 

Dickie E


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Yes, I wouldn't have thought this was a gouge but certainly contact with something hard & unforgiving - boot, fist, elbow or knee most likely. May be accidental but still worth a chat.

Unless its just bad eczema???
 

SimonSmith


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Yes, I wouldn't have thought this was a gouge but certainly contact with something hard & unforgiving - boot, fist, elbow or knee most likely. May be accidental but still worth a chat.

Unless its just bad eczema???

Why is it worth a chat? It's a physical sport, with a lot of collisions. People get a black eye just through the normal course of events.
Absent evidence of foul play, or a complaint of foul play, I'd let things continue.
 

Dickie E


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Why is it worth a chat? It's a physical sport, with a lot of collisions. People get a black eye just through the normal course of events.
Absent evidence of foul play, or a complaint of foul play, I'd let things continue.

Because if my team mate ended up with a face like that I'd be disappointed if the ref just shrugged his shoulders with "if you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen" attitude.

I'm not suggested a bollocking, just a reminder about safety, we've all got to go to work on Monday morning, etc.
 

Davet

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You can see the nail marks.

It was a gouge.

But just to mix this up further, I am sure we all know of certain clubs that have bit of a reputation for foul play, often built up over many years. How much more of a lookout do you keep when they are involved in a game?
 

Phil E


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You can see the nail marks.

It was a gouge.

So you're a medical forensic specialist now Davet?

Look like stud marks to me. :shrug:
 

SimonSmith


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Because if my team mate ended up with a face like that I'd be disappointed if the ref just shrugged his shoulders with "if you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen" attitude.

I'm not suggested a bollocking, just a reminder about safety, we've all got to go to work on Monday morning, etc.

I got injuries off injudicious team mates as well as the opposition.
I have stopped fights occurring in matches by telling the 'aggrieved' party that in actual fact that stray fist came from his own No5 and not the opposition.
 

Blackberry


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I got injuries off injudicious team mates as well as the opposition.
.
In my lowly but wonderful village team we regularly shoe our bloody stupid (but potentially talented) No 8 as he is about to give away his 5th penalty for going over.
He also put us (the front row) in mortal danger once with a very pithy remark during a scrum at a local high security prison, but I fear this is not the right forum to repeat it.
 

Bryan


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You either see it or you don't and advise ref accordingly.

A good practice for this comes from this video.

I wouldnt call it "exemplary", but I'd at least use it as a good reference where, if you ARE going to do something about it, this is what you might think of doing.

The key is that you're giving the illusion of parity among the teams and a "fair shake". The captains will likely accept that there is no actual sanction that you can give, and the opposition isnt expecting more than a "let's make sure this doesnt happen". Use a lot of words like "both of you need to maintain discipline", "we need to ensure this type of bahaviour is stamped out"; a lot of inclusive statements so that neither feels like you're picking on them specifically, but you're making a stink about it if you do.

Remember that this was only done b/c it was raised directly with the referee. If I saw a player brutally cut up out there but had no idea why, I wouldnt automatically assume it was foul play. I'm not going to be putting myself in a position where all I see is the end result but have no idea how it started, by whom, and when. I would have no leg to stand on.

Why is it worth a chat? dIt's a physical sport, with a lot of collisions. People get a black eye just through the normal course of events.
Absent evidence of foul play, or a complaint of foul play, I'd let things continue.

I'm in this boat.

Dickie E said:
Thoughts?
If an AR is going to flag something "alleged", and then ask me to get evidence on his behalf, there's probably no way I'm comfortable following through. Either he has seen it, or he hasnt. I am not expecting him/her to see everything that happens, and I accept that we will miss things, but refereeing on a hunch and sticking a flag out for something that they only "think" they've seen does not convey any message of competence on their part, and undermines any credibility in decision making within the team-of-3. Ultimately he's asking me to stick my neck on the line for something that might not have happened; once the flag is out, there's a huge spotlight on the team-of-3. If I tell the captains that we "THINK" we've seen alleged foul play, I will have used up ALL of my chit-points in that decision. I'm not saying I wouldnt do it (a LOT would depend on the temperament of the game, my trust in the AR, and his/her ability to sell this decision), but it's not something I would ever expect to hear from them.
 
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Phil E


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Every ref I have been AR for has always said.

"If you are going to hang your flag, the absolute minimum I want from you is colour, number and offence. If you don't have that, don't stick your flag in."
 
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