[Ruck] Repeat team offences who gets YC

[Huck2Spit]

Had a game this season where one side at nearly every ruck were offside in front of the last foot. Tried to manage it by telling them, individually by # to move, then gave PKs, then gave captain a chance to have a word about it. Then after being offside ( several players in front of last foot at each ruck) thru several phases of advantage, new advantage, new advantage leading to an opponent's try....I gave the captain a YC-- since I couldn't identify just one offender.
Felt like a dick move by me but is there best practices for repeat team offences?

 

[didds]

YC the bloke you see doing the offense after the warning presumably?

what is so difficult about that?

Carding the skipper is just pants. There may be many reasons why anybody is skipper particularly in the weeds - he may be the only sad ******* that is prepared to give up his Friday night covering the last minute call offs. It doesn't mean he has any clout whatsoever.

And what happens if the offense happens again a minute later - you gonna card the vice skipper now?

Now when you ask who is skipper while they are both in the bin, what are you going to do when nobody puts their hand up - after all, they've just seen you totally cop out twice, why are they going to put their neck on the block?

Now what do you do? Abandon the game?

didds

 

[SimonSmith]

You bin the skipper if he's the guilty party, not because he's the skipper.

You bin the player who you caught being guilty.

 

[Dickie E]

If multiple offenders at the one ruck select the most egregious. eg if multiple backs offside, who had the most impact on preventing the opposition doing their thing?

 

[Ian_Cook]

Had a game this season where one side at nearly every ruck were offside in front of the last foot. Tried to manage it by telling them, individually by # to move, then gave PKs, then gave captain a chance to have a word about it. Then after being offside ( several players in front of last foot at each ruck) thru several phases of advantage, new advantage, new advantage leading to an opponent's try....I gave the captain a YC-- since I couldn't identify just one offender.
Felt like a dick move by me but is there best practices for repeat team offences?

5m - No 2 is offside at the ruck - ping

8m - No 6 is offside at the ruck - ping

15m - No 2 hands in the ruck - ping

Double peep "Time is off. Captain, that's three ruck infringements in just a few minutes, two by the same player. Your team is shortening up my options now. Have a word please!"

21m - No 5 offside at the ruck - double peep. "too many infringements" as you show No. 5 the YC.then another chat with the Captain. "This has to stop Captain. Get it sorted!"

 

[The Fat]

I'd like to know where this idea of YCing a captain comes from. A couple of threads now YC the transgressors. If you keep missing the number, pay more attention.

 

[DocY]

If multiple offenders at the one ruck select the most egregious. eg if multiple backs offside, who had the most impact on preventing the opposition doing their thing?

This. But do your best not to choose the guy who's already on a YC - it's a massive ball ache if you do!

 

[The Fat]

Huck2Spit,
My previous post was not a direct attack on you. Please don't take it that way. Too many times we have heard of inexperienced (and some who have refereed enough games to know better) referees wanting to YC a captain when the referee fails to get compliance or doesn't know who committed a certain infringement.
The bottom line is, as a referee or AR, we must get the player's colour and number correct if we are going to card someone. It is not an option to bin an innocent player or the captain because we failed to do our job just as we cannot rule on something we don't see.
Sometimes you can bluff your way through, "Captain please", "Bring your player with you please". This has worked for some in the past but if the captain is switched on and says, "Sorry sir, I didn't see it. What number?", then you are basically screwed.

If you have an assessor, discuss strategies for getting compliance.
If you don't have an assessor/ref coach and you have a game where you have continual repeat infringements, following a team warning to the captain, be on high alert at the next ruck/rucks (if that is where the repeat infringements are happening) because you know there is a good chance (based on the description of the team in your OP) that someone will reoffend. You want to get that guy's number. There may be other factors at play here as well. If you are use to reffing 14 year olds and then have a senior grade game, THE BODIES ARE BIGGER and block more of what is going on if you are not getting your positioning right. Just something else to consider.

So below is the relevant part of the law with the absolutely important bit highlighted.

10.3 Repeated infringements

(a) Repeatedly offending. A player must not repeatedly infringe any Law. Repeated infringement is a matter of fact. The question of whether or not the player intended to infringe is irrelevant.
Sanction: Penalty kick

A player penalised for repeated infringements must be cautioned and temporarily suspended.

(b) Repeated infringements by the team. When different players of the same team repeatedly commit the same offence, the referee must decide whether or not this amounts to repeated infringement. If it does, the referee gives a general warning to the team and if they then repeat the offence, the referee cautions and temporarily suspends the guilty player(s).
Sanction: Penalty kick

A penalty try must be awarded if the offence prevents a try that would probably otherwise have been scored.

(c) Repeated infringements: standard applied by referee. When the referee decides how many offences constitute repeated infringement, the referee must always apply a strict standard in representative and senior matches. When a player offends three times the referee must caution that player.

The referee may relax this standard in junior or minor matches, where infringements may be the result of poor knowledge of the Laws or lack of skill.

 

[Pegleg]

I concur with the posts above.

 

[FlipFlop]

And also - not too many warnings.

1st ruck - manage, but if they don't respond - ping
2nd ruck - manage, but if they don't respond - ping
3rd ruck - manage, but if they don't respond - ping, and warn Captain
4th ruck - manage, but if they don't respond - ping, and yellow card the guilty player
5th ruck - manage, but if they don't respond - ping, and yellow card the guilty player
6th ruck - manage, but if they don't respond - ping, and yellow card the guilty player
.
.
.

Will work a lot better than:
1st ruck - manage, but if they don't respond - play-on
2nd ruck - manage, but if they don't respond - play-on
3rd ruck - manage, but if they don't respond - play-on (and have a word with the captain, about infringements you aren't penalising)
4th ruck - manage, but if they don't respond - play-on
5th ruck - manage, but if they don't respond - ping
6th ruck - manage, but if they don't respond - ping, and warn Captain
7th ruck - manage, but if they don't respond - ping (but don't YC despite warning)
8th ruck - manage, but if they don't respond - ping
9th ruck - manage, but if they don't respond - ping, and yellow card the guilty player
10th ruck - manage, but if they don't respond - ping
11th ruck - manage, but if they don't respond - ping, and yellow card the guilty player


As for not getting the number, you could always YC the gobby #9, or irritating #6, if they are in the area. Will make your game easier.... :biggrin:

 

[DocY]

And also - not too many warnings.
1st ruck - manage, but if they don't respond - ping
2nd ruck - manage, but if they don't respond - ping
3rd ruck - manage, but if they don't respond - ping, and warn Captain
4th ruck - manage, but if they don't respond - ping, and yellow card the guilty player
5th ruck - manage, but if they don't respond - ping, and yellow card the guilty player
6th ruck - manage, but if they don't respond - ping, and yellow card the guilty player

I wouldn't do that at all. Ping at the first two rucks and you won't have a problem for most of the game.

If you warn them first, you'll find them offside at every ruck and you'll have to warn them at every ruck.

 

[OB..]

I wouldn't do that at all. Ping at the first two rucks and you won't have a problem for most of the game.

I wish that were true!

If you warn them first, you'll find them offside at every ruck and you'll have to warn them at every ruck.

Only if you don't carry through to carding - and even that does not always work.

 

[SimonSmith]

I wouldn't do that at all. Ping at the first two rucks and you won't have a problem for most of the game.

If you warn them first, you'll find them offside at every ruck and you'll have to warn them at every ruck.

I don't read it that way. I read it as:
PK
PK
PK - and tell captain the card is likely coming out at the next one

You can debate whether or not the card comes out on the third offence or the fourth, but that escalation path is right for me. At higher levels, it's three 'n out if they're all in a tight timeframe.

By "manage" he isn't suggesting ignoring the offence, but working hard to get people clear - be proactive to manage players away from PK offences. "Tackler, away" "stay on your feet" "hands off"

 

[DocY]

Only if you don't carry through to carding - and even that does not always work.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you shouldn't card for repeated infringements and sure, you get some games when they're determined not to listen, but I think it's worth being extra strict at the beginning of a game to set your standards, then managing a bit more as the game goes on.

I used to over manage early on when I started out and I'd find the same infringements being committed at every ruck. They'd often stop when I told them to, but I find pinging them early nips any problems in the bud and generally makes my life easier.

 

[DocY]

By "manage" he isn't suggesting ignoring the offence, but working hard to get people clear - be proactive to manage players away from PK offences. "Tackler, away" "stay on your feet" "hands off"

Maybe we're just arguing over semantics, but for the first few rucks I give the bare minimum of instruction - usually just shouting "ruck", but not warning them about specific offences. If it happens more than three or four times, I'll still have a word with the captain, but it seldom gets that far.

As a player, the first few minutes you're trying to suss out the referee and see what you can get away with. A few early penalties and the players (at least some of them) are thinking "damn, he's strict, we'd better be on best behaviour".

 

[Pegleg]

I think it depends on the level that you've got on the day. At the lower levels calling, for example, "ruck" may not be enough - some will be very new to the game we do need to "coach" them a little. Once you get up a level or two the player know (should know) what "ruck" means.

 

[DocY]

I think it depends on the level that you've got on the day. At the lower levels calling, for example, "ruck" may not be enough - some will be very new to the game we do need to "coach" them a little. Once you get up a level or two the player know (should know) what "ruck" means.

Quite so; I wrote that with U18 and older in mind.

I did an U14 game earlier this season - my first game that young for a couple of years - and I think I took it a bit too seriously. Quite early on I had to speak to both captains to explain what I was looking for at the breakdown - they really didn't seem to know the laws!

 

[didds]

FWIW its one of my biggest "GRRRRRs" i have as a coach - players not knowing the laws. I can understand an U15 prop not really appreciating the nuances of a KO into in-goal... and a full back not knowing when a oppo jumper can be brought to ground... but the other way around really really hacks me off. The laws and good clear examples are readily available to anybody with a PC/smartphone/etc these days... which must be 100% of youth players. Back in the day we had to go to a library and borrow a book!

That's not to say confusion may not reign, but not to know at all... ARGGHHHHHH!

didds