Ripping the ball

[Pegleg]

If an arriving player gets there, AFTER the tackle is made (Knee of the floor is tackle made) then your "immediately" is up. If he is grabbing the ball before the tackle is made then he must release, an go back in. Of course all this depend upon clear and obvious.

I'm not talking about an instant later. YOU referred to your knee hitting the floor and that is tackle made. Judgement call. But there it is.

Its quite likely that Blackberry is convinced he is right, but I disagree.

 

[Blackberry]

If an arriving player gets there, AFTER the tackle is made (Knee of the floor is tackle made) then your "immediately" is up. If he is grabbing the ball before the tackle is made then he must release, an go back in. Of course all this depend upon clear and obvious.

I'm not talking about an instant later. YOU referred to your knee hitting the floor and that is tackle made. Judgement call. But there it is.

Its quite likely that Blackberry is convinced he is right, but I disagree.

Yes Pegleg, if he gets there "after" the tackle then the "immediatley" is over. What we are looking at is the player who is there at the tackle and grabs the player as he goes down. Again, I reckon the apparently conflicting laws make sense if you accept a sequence. Where the discussion comes in is in the timing, and that timing itself is not a fixed sum, it depends on the degree of isolation of the tackled player.

 

[Pegleg]

That's not what you posted. To remind you:

"Try this scenario: I am tackled, as my knee hits the floor i begin to try and place the ball but in that same fraction of a second another player grabs hold of me and the ball stopping me from playing the ball."

Your knee hits the floor = TACKLE So it's "immediately" over. If you mean: "BEFORE my knee hits the floor" the scenario fits your claim. As a ref we judge what we see. For me your knee has hit the floor man on his feet has all the rights.

 

[Blackberry]

Pegleg, "in that fraction of a second"...... the player is already there, you keep referring to an arriving player. Try and get that picture in your head and it will make more senses.

I'll put it another way;think of the two laws you see as conflicting as having a sequence. Oops, I might have said that already. I think perhaps you are thinking about a different scenario to me.

 

[OB..]

Pegleg, "in that fraction of a second"...... the player is already there, you keep referring to an arriving player. Try and get that picture in your head and it will make more senses.

I'll put it another way;think of the two laws you see as conflicting as having a sequence. Oops, I might have said that already. I think perhaps you are thinking about a different scenario to me.

My resolution of the problem is that nobody can grab the tackled player's arm to stop him passing, but a legal opponent can grab the ball. That avoids any timing problems (other than those determining if the opponent is legal).

 

[Ian_Cook]

If an arriving player gets there, AFTER the tackle is made (Knee of the floor is tackle made) then your "immediately" is up. If he is grabbing the ball before the tackle is made then he must release, an go back in. Of course all this depend upon clear and obvious.

I'm not talking about an instant later. YOU referred to your knee hitting the floor and that is tackle made. Judgement call. But there it is.

Its quite likely that Blackberry is convinced he is right, but I disagree.

IMO, the tackler's "immediate" has a shorter life span than that of the tackled player.

Law 15 says

The tackler must release the tackled player and ball immediately
The tackle assist must release the tackled player and ball immediately
The tackled player must release the ball immediately by placing passing pushing or releasing

It does not say what order this must happen, convention seems to be that the tackler's and Tackle Assist's "immediately" expires first. If the quickly arriving player is trying to take the ball from the tackled player, while the tackler is still holding on to the tackled player, I'm pinging the tackler for not releasing!


This can raise another problem however.; if we expect tackler to release the instant the tackled player's knee touches the ground, then we need to start being vigilant on tackled players getting back to their feet again. Perhaps the emphasis need to change from assuming the ball carrier hasn't been tackled to assuming that he has, and penalising accordingly. Its not much to change and its easy to sell.

Player: "But ref, I wasn't held"
Referee: "That's because the tackler released you as he is supposed to"

 

[RobLev]

IMO, the tackler's "immediate" has a shorter life span than that of the tackled player.

Law 15 says

The tackler must release the tackled player and ball immediately
The tackle assist must release the tackled player and ball immediately
The tackled player must release the ball immediately by placing passing pushing or releasing

It does not say what order this must happen, convention seems to be that the tackler's and Tackle Assist's "immediately" expires first. If the quickly arriving player is trying to take the ball from the tackled player, while the tackler is still holding on to the tackled player, I'm pinging the tackler for not releasing!
...

Law 15 also provides express sanctions on tacklers/assists if they prevent the tackled player passing or releasing the ball immediately; which for me make the "convention" the only possible interpretation of the Law; and the IRB "Five key areas of refereeeing" of June 2012 draws the same conclusion (yes, I know, we've recently gone round this).

 

[Pegleg]

Pegleg, "in that fraction of a second"...... the player is already there, you keep referring to an arriving player. Try and get that picture in your head and it will make more senses.

I'll put it another way;think of the two laws you see as conflicting as having a sequence. Oops, I might have said that already. I think perhaps you are thinking about a different scenario to me.

He's an "arriving" player if not involved in the tackle. so when he goes in for the ball he is the king. He can't hold the ball in to the player looking for the cheap PK. But he has arrived AFTER the tackle and is the man on his feet.

Try and get that picture in your head and it will make more sense.

 

[Pegleg]

Law 15 also provides express sanctions on tacklers/assists if they prevent the tackled player passing or releasing the ball immediately; which for me make the "convention" the only possible interpretation of the Law; and the IRB "Five key areas of refereeing" of June 2012 draws the same conclusion (yes, I know, we've recently gone round this).

I'm not talking about a player preventing release. I'm talking about an arriving player ripping the ball, the subject of the thread! If the arriving player merely hold the player and the ball in (looking for the PK that is a totally different issue.

 

[Pegleg]

IMO, the tackler's "immediate" has a shorter life span than that of the tackled player.

Law 15 says

The tackler must release the tackled player and ball immediately
The tackle assist must release the tackled player and ball immediately
The tackled player must release the ball immediately by placing passing pushing or releasing

It does not say what order this must happen, convention seems to be that the tackler's and Tackle Assist's "immediately" expires first. If the quickly arriving player is trying to take the ball from the tackled player, while the tackler is still holding on to the tackled player, I'm pinging the tackler for not releasing!


This can raise another problem however.; if we expect tackler to release the instant the tackled player's knee touches the ground, then we need to start being vigilant on tackled players getting back to their feet again. Perhaps the emphasis need to change from assuming the ball carrier hasn't been tackled to assuming that he has, and penalising accordingly. Its not much to change and its easy to sell.

Player: "But ref, I wasn't held"
Referee: "That's because the tackler released you as he is supposed to"

I'm referring to an "arriving player" not a "tackler" or "tackle assist". Hence the comment (which you quoted):

If an arriving player gets there, AFTER the tackle is made...

 

[Ian_Cook]

I'm referring to an "arriving player" not a "tackler" or "tackle assist". Hence the comment (which you quoted):

Yes, I know you are talking about the arriving player but you have missed my point.

I don't give a fat rats arse how quick the arriving player arrives; if the tackler is still holding onto the tackled player while the arrived player is trying to take the ball, two offences are being committed, one by each team.

Tackler not releasing tacked player
Tackled player not releasing ball

Convention is that you either play on and see what develops or you PK the tackler. Most referees I know will let the situation breathe for a moment by calling release.

Even if the arriving player is there and gets his hands in the ball 1 millisecond after the ball carrier becomes a tackled player, if the tackle is still holding on, and continues to hold on he will be PK before the tackled player is..

 

[Pegleg]

But that is not the Scenario that I replied to. We are talking about the "arriving player". Of course convention decrees we take the Tackler first. If he is offending then we have our penalty. But, as said I was not replying to that scenario.

 

[ddjamo]

Yes, I know you are talking about the arriving player but you have missed my point.

I don't give a fat rats arse how quick the arriving player arrives; if the tackler is still holding onto the tackled player while the arrived player is trying to take the ball, two offences are being committed, one by each team.

Tackler not releasing tacked player
Tackled player not releasing ball

Convention is that you either play on and see what develops or you PK the tackler. Most referees I know will let the situation breathe for a moment by calling release.

Even if the arriving player is there and gets his hands in the ball 1 millisecond after the ball carrier becomes a tackled player, if the tackle is still holding on, and continues to hold on he will be PK before the tackled player is..

where I was going with it....thank you Ian...agree. let it breathe and see if they release as required by command and working out the situation.

 

[Phil E]

I am with ddjamo.....let it breathe and you might not have to blow your whistle. That is always the best outcome.

 

[ddjamo]

I am with ddjamo.....let it breathe and you might not have to blow your whistle. That is always the best outcome.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNCrMEOqHpc

my typical received response...ha! thanks phil.

 

[ChrisR]

From OB:

15.5 (e) If opposition players who are on their feet attempt to play the ball, the tackled player must release the ball.
15.7 (a) No player may prevent the tackled player from passing the ball.

Do you think those two are compatible? I don't.

I don't think they are incompatible but 15.7 needs expanding to end with: "by grasping the tackled player".

The distinction needs to be made between playing the ball and playing the player. With that in mind the laws make sense.

 

[OB..]

From OB:

15.5 (e) If opposition players who are on their feet attempt to play the ball, the tackled player must release the ball.
15.7 (a) No player may prevent the tackled player from passing the ball.

Do you think those two are compatible? I don't.

I don't think they are incompatible but 15.7 needs expanding to end with: "by grasping the tackled player".

The distinction needs to be made between playing the ball and playing the player. With that in mind the laws make sense.

Isn't that what I proposed?

My resolution of the problem is that nobody can grab the tackled player's arm to stop him passing, but a legal opponent can grab the ball. That avoids any timing problems (other than those determining if the opponent is legal).

Unfortunately it is not what the law currently says or implies. If a Statute comes up with such a problem, lawyers and judges try to find an interpretation that makes both parts effective (until Parliament/IRB rewrites it).

 

[Pegleg]

I am with ddjamo.....let it breathe and you might not have to blow your whistle. That is always the best outcome.

Totally agree. However, you need to be prepared to act if letting it breathe does not bring clarification.

 

[Phil E]

Totally agree. However, you need to be prepared to act if letting it breathe does not bring clarification.

Really?........I was just going to let them fight it out amongst themselves! :sarc:

 

[Pegleg]

Indeed. The point being, however, that the discussion is valid so that, as refs, we are prepared to act if it does not "work itself out".

- - - Updated - - -

The distinction needs to be made between playing the ball and playing the player. With that in mind the laws make sense.

Spot on.