Ripping the ball

[crossref]

Black 9 picked up the ball and went on a ineffectual run, encountering blue 10

Blue 10, instead of tackling attempts to rip the ball from him and gets an arm round the ball, they wrestle for second or so, (no teammates so it's not a maul) and the two of them over balance and both fall to the floor, still fighting for the ball. On the ground neither of them release the ball.

Is this a tackle?
If it's not a tackle what happens

(I decided it was a tackle and so PK blue 10 for not releasing)

 

[Ian_Cook]

Black 9 had possession of the ball first, and AFAIK the Law makes no provision for opposing players to both be in possession, so the fact that Blue 10 got his hands around the ball while they were still both on their feet is irrelevant unless Black 9 gives up the ball to Blue 10 before the go to ground

Therefore, IMO, it is a tackle, and Blue 10 is the tackler so he must let go. I agree with your call to ping him.

 

[Simon Thomas]

Sounds like a tackle to me

 

[ddjamo]

what happened next? did a contest ensue over the top of them? was the contest won over the top? was there support anywhere near? in the OP there was the fact that neither released...what did they need to release for? was attacking support there first looking to play the ball?

I don't think uniformly applying law/tackle sequence applies every time in this situation. I would look to see which side's arriving player is ready to play the ball first and both players on the deck would need to release and let the ball be played by a player on their feet. pinging straight on for (at that point) a non material offense is just that. what happened next is more important imo than choosing which guy to ping....they can both hug the ball until someone upright wants it...then if they don't give it up...ping time.

that's a much easier call to sell, "red was ready to play the ball and blue did not release."

 

[crossref]

What happened next was that
other players arrived from both sides, intent on getting the ball ,
both players on the ground held on to the ball for grim death. Clearly the ball wasn't coming out so I blew my whistle and paused for half a second thinking about what the right decision was...

 

[Ian_Cook]

what happened next? did a contest ensue over the top of them? was the contest won over the top? was there support anywhere near? in the OP there was the fact that neither released...what did they need to release for? was attacking support there first looking to play the ball?

I don't think uniformly applying law/tackle sequence applies every time in this situation. I would look to see which side's arriving player is ready to play the ball first and both players on the deck would need to release and let the ball be played by a player on their feet. pinging straight on for (at that point) a non material offense is just that. what happened next is more important imo than choosing which guy to ping....they can both hug the ball until someone upright wants it...then if they don't give it up...ping time.

that's a much easier call to sell, "red was ready to play the ball and blue did not release."

And if both players won't release? IMO, it has to be a PK against the tackler every time, regardless of who arrived first. The tackled player has been denied the opportunity to place or pass the ball, by the tackler.

[LAWS]15.7 FORBIDDEN PRACTICES
(a) No player may prevent the tackled player from passing the ball.
Sanction: Penalty kick[/LAWS]

 

[OB..]

And if both players won't release? IMO, it has to be a PK against the tackler every time, regardless of who arrived first. The tackled player has been denied the opportunity to place or pass the ball, by the tackler.

[LAWS]15.7 FORBIDDEN PRACTICES
(a) No player may prevent the tackled player from passing the ball.
Sanction: Penalty kick[/LAWS]

That bit of law would prevent a jackler from taking the ball, so it surely cannot be taken literally. 15.6 (b) specifically allows "other players" to gain possession.

 

[Pegleg]

Was Black 9 "Held and brought to ground"?

Two players wrestling over a ball both go to ground.

Do those statements constitute a "tackle" in law?

 

[crossref]

Was Black 9 "Held and brought to ground"?

Two players wrestling over a ball both go to ground.

Do those statements constitute a "tackle" in law?

Well, that is the point of my question.
I decided it was a tackle. There was a ball carrier and he was brought to ground. I think that when there is a ball carrier the distinction between holding the ball, and holding him is a distinction without a difference

Once I had decided that it was a tackle the decision was easy.

If it wasn't a tackle (and I concede this is open to discussion, then the decision is a lot trickier. What was it?

 

[Ian_Cook]

Was Black 9 "Held and brought to ground"?

Two players wrestling over a ball both go to ground.

Do those statements constitute a "tackle" in law?

What else could it be? Law 14? I can't see how, and in any case, it if was...

[LAWS]LAW 14 DEFINITIONS
This situation occurs when the ball is available on the ground and a player goes
to ground to gather the ball, except immediately after a scrum or a ruck.
It also occurs when a player is on the ground in possession of the ball and has
not been tackled.[/LAWS]

[LAWS]LAW 14.1 PLAYERS ON THE GROUND
(a) A player with the ball must immediately do one of three things:
• Get up with the ball
• Pass the ball
• Release the ball.
Sanction: Penalty kick
[/LAWS]


They both have the ball.... which one are you going to PK?

No. This is a tackle alright. The Ball Carrier (Black 9) is holding the ball and the opponent (Blue 10) grasps the ball (therefore, by inference is holding the player who doesn't give it up) and brings them both to ground. Black 9 is the tackled player , Blue 10 is the tackler, and he must release the tackled player so that the latter has the opportunity to push, pass or place. Its the simplest solution. and IMO, the correct one.

I have seen this situation in an All Blacks v Wallabies test. I can't remember who the Wallaby was, but he was the ball carrier. Tony Woodcock grabbed the ball and dragged him to ground. Woodcock, lying on the ground next to the Wallaby, ripped the ball out. He was PK and YC for not releasing.

 

[Pegleg]

If you were to feel it not a tackle then a quick whistle and scrum to the side going forward etc.

 

[Blackberry]

That bit of law would prevent a jackler from taking the ball, so it surely cannot be taken literally. 15.6 (b) specifically allows "other players" to gain possession.

You're ok to take it literally, the jackler has to release the tackled player and not stop him placing / passing the ball as the tackled player goes to ground. If you think a jackler is not a tackle assister but simply an arriving player then the standard not releasing penalty against the tackled player will be a likely outcome. Just remember that a tackle assist has to release and a very swiftly arriving player could also fall foul of stopping the tackled player playing the ball.

 

[Pegleg]

... a very swiftly arriving player could also fall foul of stopping the tackled player playing the ball.

Not for me. If a player has arrived post tackle and is on he feet "immediately" has now gone.

 

[FightOrFlight]

To me it's a totally correct decision in the OP.

The 10 has got a firm grip on the ball and has wrapped on to it and the 9 has brought it in and to ground. It is a grey area but as the 9 has possession and it is "his ball" until law forces him to release it wrapping on to the ball and trying to rip but failing could be seen as wrapping the arms and bringing the player to ground. Like I said...grey area but if it is "his ball" and law provides no clear guideline a referee could judge that wrapping the ball is wrapping the player and so normal tackle laws apply.
Pulling the jersey and bringing a player to ground is judged in most cases a full tackle despite the lack of "wrapping the arms". The tackler is levering the player to ground much the same was trying to rip the ball does.

 

[Browner]

Black 9 picked up the ball and went on a ineffectual run, encountering blue 10

Blue 10, instead of tackling attempts to rip the ball from him and gets an arm round the ball, they wrestle for second or so, (no teammates so it's not a maul) and the two of them over balance and both fall to the floor, still fighting for the ball. On the ground neither of them release the ball.

Is this a tackle?
If it's not a tackle what happens

(I decided it was a tackle and so PK blue 10 for not releasing)

When black goes to ground you have to consider that blue took him there even if they fell over.

Even if black dropped his knee first then it makes no discernable difference - blue is still deemed to have made a tackle and is required to release the original BC once they've landed,

so its a tackle for me every day & twice on Saturdays .

 

[Blackberry]

Not for me. If a player has arrived post tackle and is on he feet "immediately" has now gone.

Try this scenario: I am tackled, as my knee hits the floor i begin to try and place the ball but in that same fraction of a second another player grabs hold of me and the ball stopping me from playing the ball.

 

[Pegleg]

I refer to my previous answer. Man on his feet is king.

 

[OB..]

You're ok to take it literally, the jackler has to release the tackled player and not stop him placing / passing the ball as the tackled player goes to ground. If you think a jackler is not a tackle assister but simply an arriving player then the standard not releasing penalty against the tackled player will be a likely outcome. Just remember that a tackle assist has to release and a very swiftly arriving player could also fall foul of stopping the tackled player playing the ball.

[LAWS]15.5 (e) If opposition players who are on their feet attempt to play the ball, the tackled player must release the ball.
15.7 (a) No player may prevent the tackled player from passing the ball.
[/LAWS]Do you think those two are compatible? I don't.

Obviously players attempting to play the ball must be legal, but according to 15.5 (e) they can play the ball which will prevent the tackled player from passing it.

 

[Blackberry]

I refer to my previous answer. Man on his feet is king.

...and I refer to the laws

 

[Blackberry]

While I might gently chide Pegleg for refusing to let facts colour his judgement, the relative "kingdoms" do depend on timing and the proximity of supporting players which I think is where he's coming from. It might help if he sees the apparently conflicting laws as having a sequence or priority.

I still though think Pegleg would find it a hard sell to ping me as a tackled player as I was falling down. Its quite likely that Pegleg is rightly convinced he is right, but he is talking about the situation an instant later.