[Tackle] Ruck - ball not on floor?

[Zebra1922]

What should happen if you get a tackle, a subsequent pile of bodies (usually with the aim of forming a ruck, maybe competing fairly in a standing position but then going to ground) but the ball never actually makes the ground?

I ask as I had an incident recently which ended with several bodies on the floor, and bizarrely the ball at the top of the pile. A defending player reached over for the ball (he was on his feet and 'onside' if we were calling it a ruck) and played the ball. I penalised at the time for hands in the ruck, but as noted the ball never made the floor.

I am assuming I was wrong to penalise, but it also seems wrong that this was a play on situation. Any thoughts?

 

[Decorily]

Probably the best option is to treat it like a ruck.
Could bring a whole lot of pain on yourself (and players) by not doing so.
Setting too high a standard in terms of 'does it meet the definition of a ruck' could make it impossible to referee.
Just my opinion, but I'm fairly certain others will disagree.

 

[Taff]

The outcome for the unsuccessful end to a tackle is the same as the outcome for the unsuccessful end to a ruck.

You had a tackle, so as long as the opponent came in through the gate, he was entitled to play the ball.

.... I ask as I had an incident recently which ended with several bodies on the floor, and bizarrely the ball at the top of the pile. .... I penalised at the time for hands in the ruck, but as noted the ball never made the floor.

Not only was the ball not on the floor, there weren't 2 opposing players on their feet over it either. I'm sure we've all done it, but sorry mate that just wasn't a ruck.

 

[menace]

What should happen if you get a tackle, a subsequent pile of bodies (usually with the aim of forming a ruck, maybe competing fairly in a standing position but then going to ground) but the ball never actually makes the ground?

I ask as I had an incident recently which ended with several bodies on the floor, and bizarrely the ball at the top of the pile. A defending player reached over for the ball (he was on his feet and 'onside' if we were calling it a ruck) and played the ball. I penalised at the time for hands in the ruck, but as noted the ball never made the floor.

I am assuming I was wrong to penalise, but it also seems wrong that this was a play on situation. Any thoughts?

Id be asking how and why the ball got to the top in the first place and couldn't make the floor? Did the tackler not release (or ripped it after going to ground). If nothing there...then probably a case to play on.

 

[Rich_NL]

It's rare, but happened to me yesterday too. I only twigged because I was caught out on a law quiz a while back with exactly that question. I called "no ruck, play on" and the players thoughtfully obeyed...

As to what happened: low level match, green prop got tackled, rolled back to place the ball but blue jackler got over it and ripped the ball before it was on green's side. Support came in, blue lost his feet almost straight away as he turned to hand it back, pile of people, ball sticking up.

 

[Pinky]

This sounds like it should be a scrum to the side going forward for ball not available. There was one in the AIs at the weekend - I think it might have been Scotland Argentina. You almost never see that in TV rugby, but it will usually happen several times and low level matches. Basically a pile up that never was a ruck.

 

[Phil E]

The law tells us that if a player is kneeling on the floor he is off his feet. Likewise if he is kneeling on a player who is on the floor, he is also off his feet. So in both cases he is on the floor.

This would suggest to me that a ball on the floor is treated the same as a ball on a player who is on the floor.

 

[Not Kurt Weaver]

The law tells us that if a player is kneeling on the floor he is off his feet. Likewise if he is kneeling on a player who is on the floor, he is also off his feet. So in both cases he is on the floor.

This would suggest to me that a ball on the floor is treated the same as a ball on a player who is on the floor.

Yes, indeed. Cept we do not allow that in-goal. A player cannot ground the ball against a player off his feet to score a try or complete a touchdown. So ... a player off his feet is not the same as the floor when occurring in-goal, but is in FOP?

 

[davidlandy]

This sounds like it should be a scrum to the side going forward for ball not available.

Bit puzzled why you say "ball not available" - surely if it's right there, the scrum half could pick it out. We allow it in any other ruck so why not this one?

 

[Pinky]

Sorry, missed the bit where it said ball on top of the pile, and yes in many cases that may well be play on. What I meant to point out was we don't need to have a penalty for every event where the ball does not come out, the proper sanction often may be a scrum.

 

[davidlandy]

Sorry, missed the bit where it said ball on top of the pile, and yes in many cases that may well be play on. What I meant to point out was we don't need to have a penalty for every event where the ball does not come out, the proper sanction often may be a scrum.

Ah OK yes - good point

 

[The Fat]

Id be asking how and why the ball got to the top in the first place and couldn't make the floor? Did the tackler not release (or ripped it after going to ground).

This^^^
Player gets tackled and ball ends up on top of a pile of bodies. Sounds to me like someone didn't roll away.
If you call play on and an opposition player plucks it from the pile, you may be rewarding the team that may have infringed.
Tackle/ruck is a fluid beast. A ruck may form while the tackled player is in the process of placing the ball but technically the ball hasn't touched the ground yet. You are still going to referee that as a ruck situation.
Long story short, if it looks like a ruck, ref it like a ruck.
In the case of the OP, I would have been asking myself "did everyone comply after the tackle was made"? From my reading the OP I'd say probably not.

 

[beckett50]

What should happen if you get a tackle, a subsequent pile of bodies (usually with the aim of forming a ruck, maybe competing fairly in a standing position but then going to ground) but the ball never actually makes the ground?

I ask as I had an incident recently which ended with several bodies on the floor, and bizarrely the ball at the top of the pile. A defending player reached over for the ball (he was on his feet and 'onside' if we were calling it a ruck) and played the ball. I penalised at the time for hands in the ruck, but as noted the ball never made the floor.

I am assuming I was wrong to penalise, but it also seems wrong that this was a play on situation. Any thoughts?

Mass of bodies (unplayable*) = blow quickly and scrum to team going forward at the time of the tackle (usually the ball carrier)

*yes I know the OP said the ball was at the top of the pile - somehow. However, if we consider gravity and the dynamics of physics there is no way the ball could have got there legally which means it was played on the ground by the ball carrier and/or one (or more) of his team mates :hap:

 

[Decorily]

.............. it was played on the ground by the ball carrier and/or one (or more) of his team mates :hap:

If it's as C+O as you make it seem then penalise them!

 

[Arabcheif]

Although the events are highly unlikely, it is possible that the ball may not make the ground.

BC runs into tackle. Ends up on his back and releases the ball. As he's protecting himself, he's unable to push the ball back. Players pile in but end up off and on feet. No-one has touched the ball. I'd suggest that this is currently legal as no-one has played the ball.

Would I be right??

 

[didds]

seems totally reasonable to me Arabcheif, and I had thought the same.

If there are any PKs to come out of this unholy mess its because players are allowed to flop all over the place at a ruck. if all ruckers must remain on their feet then the ruck either gets pushed past the ball-on-tummy and passed away, or its static and the s/half digs in and retrieves it as normal. rather than just having piles of bodies with a ball on top.

didds

 

[Pinky]

Although the events are highly unlikely, it is possible that the ball may not make the ground.

BC runs into tackle. Ends up on his back and releases the ball. As he's protecting himself, he's unable to push the ball back. Players pile in but end up off and on feet. No-one has touched the ball. I'd suggest that this is currently legal as no-one has played the ball.

Would I be right??

Would they legally have gone off their feet?