Ruck/maul with tackler having hands on the ball - help please!

[Rich]

Sorry, difficult to precis in a title;

Red is tackled to the ground by blue. Blue gets up and manages to get hands on ball as players bind on from both sides;

1) Blue tackler lifts ball off ground after "ruck" is formed. Technically he had hands on as the ruck is formed so is allowed to continue holding the ball right?

2) Now that the ball is off the ground is this now a maul and maul law applies? In other words if this goes nowhere, Reds not in possession at start of maul so ball reverts to red scrum?

3) No red player can compete (snatch) ball from blue's hands as ruck is formed, but then it's lifted off the ground, so red player can try to wrestle as a maul is now formed....??

:shrug:

as all this is happening in the blink of an eye, can some of you clever peeps suggest a tidy mental method of dealing with this?

 

[Dixie]

It's a bugger. The easy solution is to continue to referee it as a ruck, so no-one other than the jackler can handle it. But what if he smuggles it back to a team mate? PK for a handling in a ruck when the ball was legally 1m off the ground?

The alternative is to call MAUL as soon as it's off the ground, and live with the fiction that the jackler got it off the ground before others bound on. For me this is the better solution - but when it doesn't emerge, are you happy to give the "use it or lose it" maul turnover?

No simple answer, but I suggest 2 is less imperfect than 1.

 

[RussRef]

I agree with Dixie.

This is to me one of the most difficult calls, because as Rich says, it happens so fast. The critical question is whether the tackler has put his hands on the ball before the ruck is formed. Since this is so often a very close call, I am more concerned about making a quick decision and communicating what I think has happened than worrying about whether a slow-motion instant replay would show I was accurate. So if I haven't called "ruck" yet, I would give the tackler the benefit of the doubt and play it as a maul, which is Dixie's preferred option as well. If I have called it a ruck, there's no way I'd allow the tackler to handle it. If he hands it backward to a teammate, I can't imagine selling a "hands in the ruck" call at that point. Even if the players think you might've missed the call by a split second, I think they can live with a call that's consistent with preventive refereeing -- no surprises that way. This approach probably means that in marginal situations it'll be refereed as a maul rather than a ruck, but that seems right to me.

Dixie: This is a nit, but I'm not clear on whether "jackler" refers to a tackler and/or a defending player who's remained on his feet -- what I've heard referred to as the "tackle assist" -- or just the latter.

 

[Account Deleted]

We were discussing this on the weekend. Not easy at all.

 

[Dixie]

Dixie: *This is a nit, but I'm not clear on whether "jackler" refers to a tackler and/or a defending player who's remained on his feet -- what I've heard referred to as the "tackle assist" -- or just the latter.

16.4b allows the next player in to handle in the ruck f he had his hands on before the ruck formed - attacker, defender, tackler or tackle assist. *All can be the jackler.

 

[ChrisR]

Once the ball is off the deck the ruck becomes a maul, and maul law prevails. So if the maul fails to end successfully then the team not in possession gets the subsequent scrum feed. I can't see any argument in law for otherwise.

The only issue in law is the absence in law for declaring this event as a legit "successful end".

 

[Phil E]

Ruck formed (as stated in the OP).

Has the ruck ended successfully? Has the ball left the ruck?

If not, then you can't have a maul, you still have a ruck.

 

[TNT88]

Some people think this through too much.

If he picks up the ball 3 things can happen

(1) He can leave the ruck and general play begins

(2) He can lose the ball, either by dropping it or having it ripped off him (if the latter, go back to step 1)

(3) The ruck deteriorates, usually through a collapse - call a scrum to team going forward.


Some people say that the opponents can't use their hands because it's a ruck, is anyone really going to call that though?

The thing to remember is that whenever a game of rugby descends into a mess, you can always blow a scrum. Just use that as your get out in this scenario, you don't have to blow a penalty no matter how angry players get. It's not our fault the law is poorly defined for a few rare cases.

 

[ChrisR]

So what do we have? A "raul" or a "muck"?

This is the same issue when the ball in a maul is forced to the deck.

What takes precedence, the lack of wording to describe a successful end or the definitions.

One could say the the ball "leaves the ruck" when it comes off the ground and it becomes a maul.

 

[Rich]

Ruck formed (as stated in the OP).

Has the ruck ended successfully? Has the ball left the ruck?

If not, then you can't have a maul, you still have a ruck.

and there's the rub...

I think I tend to agree with Dixie's original post which is to treat the whole thing as a maul - ie the ball was off the ground and then players bound in from each side, rather than a ruck. This caters for the ambiguity of who is allowed to have hands on the ball and how it's allowed to be used. A shout of "maul" also helps clarify any confusion with players.

 

[Browner]

It's a bugger. The easy solution is to continue to referee it as a ruck, so no-one other than the jackler can handle it. But what if he smuggles it back to a team mate? PK for a handling in a ruck when the ball was legally 1m off the ground?

The alternative is to call MAUL as soon as it's off the ground, and live with the fiction that the jackler got it off the ground before others bound on. For me this is the better solution - but when it doesn't emerge, are you happy to give the "use it or lose it" maul turnover?

No simple answer, but I suggest 2 is less imperfect than 1.

My yardstick is whether he has secured possession OR merely got hands on the ball

If he's secured possession beforean opponent engages with him, then it becomes a maul as soon as the opponent does and its his/teammates job to work the ball out successfully.

If he's not actually secured possession but has his hands on the ball then 16.4(b) permits him to be the only person able to ' continue' to use hands (after a ruck is formed ) to smuggle it back, doesn't it?

16.4b allows ONLY THE TACKLER (not other jacklers) permission to handle in the ruck post formation

my observe sequence is,
Tackler....release-up-hands on-stolen?
TPlayer.... preventing steal?
Arrivers... Angle-prevent steal-ruck or maul formed?

In terms of management
TACKLER OK
RUCK FORMED / ITS A MAAUUL, taken in green

Its up to players to know their rights and law at each change.

I've tried various else, which either tongue ties me or takes too long to compute and communicate. It works for me

 

[TNT88]

What takes precedence, the lack of wording to describe a successful end or the definitions.

One could say the the ball "leaves the ruck" when it comes off the ground and it becomes a maul.

You could. Depends on the ref I guess. The other approach is to just to disregard the hands in the ruck law in a jackle scenario and to blow the ruck up quickly if there is no speedy conclusion to the contest.

 

[irishref]

It is a pig isn't it!

I would say (and this happens in flash as well) see how play develops. You say, Rich, that the blue tackler legally gets his hands on the ball just as the would-be ruck is formed. Well, see what he does with the ball. If he's able to twist himself and ball away from opponents, let him play it.

If he gets the ball away but is held by an opposing would-be rucker on his feet, let that new situation develop (still not a maul until a team-mate of the ball carrier binds to the Red and Blue players). Most probably it will turn into a bone fide maul anyway, otherwise Blue will manage to pass the ball.

If his hands on the ball and slight lift off the ground was then negated by the ensuing ruck and the ball goes back to ground, treat it as a ruck.

Very easy to write the above isn't it, but this happens so quickly. I guess my advice would be take the second or two to see how play develops, a tough ask I know!

 

[Browner]

But what if he smuggles it back to a team mate?

Ignore it, its been won...part of the unofficial 'facilitates cleaner/quicker game' law

 

[ChrisR]

Browner: "16.4b allows ONLY THE TACKLER (not other jacklers) permission to handle in the ruck post formation"

Not sure how you get to that from 16.4(b). Most often it's the 'tackle assist' who'll get their first and get his hands on the ball.

Another twist is this: If the jackler (above scenario) gets the ball off the deck but is not joined by a teammate then he becomes a 'ball carrier' and can be taken to ground in a tackle. That would be extremely messy; therefore, the ruck can't end until a teammate binds on and a maul forms.

Seems to me that the law writers skulked away from this one.

 

[Browner]

Browner: "16.4b allows ONLY THE TACKLER (not other jacklers) permission to handle in the ruck post formation"

Not sure how you get to that from 16.4(b). Most often it's the 'tackle assist' who'll get their first and get his hands on the ball.

Another twist is this: If the jackler (above scenario) gets the ball off the deck but is not joined by a teammate then he becomes a 'ball carrier' and can be taken to ground in a tackle. That would be extremely messy; therefore, the ruck can't end until a teammate binds on and a maul forms.

Seems to me that the law writers skulked away from this one.

Read again what I've said.

 

[ChrisR]

Read again what I've said.

I suggest that you re-read and re-think what you wrote.

 

[Dixie]

Read again what I've said.

OK, I've done that, and your comment is still incorrect. Now what?

 

[Phil E]

OK, I've done that, and your comment is still incorrect. Now what?

I was just about to say the same thing?

 

[TNT88]

Correct, a maul can't form with 1 person from the ball carriers team.

The solution is to just blow a scrum if the jackler doesn't get away with the ball within a reasonable amount of time.