RWC Aus vs Sco

Dickie E


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Judging from the time you posted this, I assume you are talking about the Aus v Pumas game?
If so, Folou grubber kicks and the ball hits a team mate in front of him. Are you saying you don't see this as accidental offside?
Not sure what Pegleg's response means. Need to clarify?
Definitely accidental offside if it's the Folou kick

Blackberry is humourously suggesting that if the CJ incident in Aus v Scotland was a PK then the Folou kick should be a PK too. Pegleg didn't think the joke was funny.
 

OB..


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No, I'm saying that he stuck his hand out, just like Maitland did, in the hope of intercepting the ball, just like Maitland did, but the ball stuck for him and it didn't stick for Maitland.

Simmonds was lucky and got a try, Maitland was unluckly and got PK and a YC!
Do you also claim the context was the same?

I also disagree that the actions were identical. I don't think Maitland had a realistic prospect of getting an interception, but had a go at it anyway. I don't imagine he actually made a conscious decision, but more an instinctive reaction. He was defending against two players, close to his own line and gambled.

The differences are what matter, more than the similarities.
 

wayner

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No, I'm saying that he stuck his hand out, just like Maitland did, in the hope of intercepting the ball, just like Maitland did, but the ball stuck for him and it didn't stick for Maitland.

Simmonds was lucky and got a try, Maitland was unluckly and got PK and a YC!
Yeah - I made this same point in the Aus-Arg thread. If Simmons drops the ball is it a YC?
 

Ian_Cook


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Do you also claim the context was the same?

Yes it was the same... in both cases, a player passed the ball and an opponent attempted a one-handed intercept, one opponent succeeded, the other didn't. It matters not a jot where and when the incident took place. Location on the field only comes into consideration AFTER you have decided the knock on was intentional; it should never come into consideration as a factor in deciding intent or lack of intent.

I also disagree that the actions were identical. I don't think Maitland had a realistic prospect of getting an interception, but had a go at it anyway.

It doesn't matter whether it was realsitic or not, the only thing that matters is what he intended. It did not look intentional to me.

I don't imagine he actually made a conscious decision, but more an instinctive reaction. He was defending against two players, close to his own line and gambled

Contradictio in terminis!!! If you acknowledge that it was NOT a "conscious decision", how on earth can you then come to the conclusion that it WAS "intentional"!!!?

The differences are what matter, more than the similarities.

I see this the other way around, the similarities are more important. I just have a completely different understanding of intent from you and Dickie. I apply the dictionary meaning of intentional; i.e. to do something on purpose or deliberately. I have no idea where you get your meaning of "intentional" from, its not in any dictionary that I know of, and it isn't defined in the LotG.

For mine, "intentional" in the LotG on means that the player acts with the clear intent to infringe the Laws. That meaning applies to...

10.1 (b), (c), (d) & (e)
10.2 (a), (b) & (c)
10.4 (k) & (o)
11.3 (c)
11.6 (b)
14.2 (a) & (b)
16.3 (b), (c) & (f)
17.2 (e)
19.7 (c)
19.14 (d)
20.1 (d)
20.8 (c), (e), (f) & (h)
20.9 (a)
21.7 (d)
21.8 (d)
22.17 (a)

.. and yet for some reason, when it comes to Law 12.1 (f), you want to apply a completely different meaning that is inconsistent with its application to every other Law of the Game. Sorry, but I simply cannot go along with that.

I see no intent in what Maitland did. I would have awarded a scrum, as indeed Joubert did originally before he was persuaded by the TMO looking at it in slow motion. This is one of these occasions when slow motion makes it look worse than it really is.
 

menace


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Wow...you really don't want to give it up do you Ian? You're just not convincing enough yet. Dog with a bone.
Good for you for sticking to your guns - a bit OCD, but good for you.
 

RobLev

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99 times out a 100, knock on and scrum. But if a Blue player threw a forward pass which Red were about to catch and a Blue player stuck a hand out to deny him - quite likely a PK.

Why not a PK?
 

menace


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Blackberry is humourously suggesting that if the CJ incident in Aus v Scotland was a PK then the Folou kick should be a PK too. Pegleg didn't think the joke was funny.


I don't believe Pegleg has a sense of humour. When he was collecting emotions he went to the cranky line first and by the time he got to the humour line they ran out.
 
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RobLev

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Wow...you really don't want to give it up do you Ian? You're just not convincing enough yet. Dog with a bone.
Good for you for sticking to your guns - a bit OCD, but good for you.

He isn't the only one who thinks that "Intentionally" should be construed as meaning "Intentionally".
 

menace


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Yeah - I made this same point in the Aus-Arg thread. If Simmons drops the ball is it a YC?

I think he would have been liable for PK, but like I did that Maitland (??) incident, that a YC would have been harsh. The other context in that incident that was different to Maitland was the proximity of the players from the pass and the field position. For mine in attack and doing that is a lot different than doing that when in defence. But hey that's me, others will be all over this to rubbish the idea that field position and the likelihood of expecting it to be successfully executed is not a factor that should be considered.
 

Ian_Cook


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Wow...you really don't want to give it up do you Ian? You're just not convincing enough yet. Dog with a bone.
Good for you for sticking to your guns - a bit OCD, but good for you.

Obviously you can't attack the argument, so you attack the arguer.

Nothing new there then!
 

Ian_Cook


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I think he would have been liable for PK, but like I did that Maitland (??) incident, that a YC would have been harsh. The other context in that incident that was different to Maitland was the proximity of the players from the pass and the field position. For mine in attack and doing that is a lot different than doing that when in defence. But hey that's me, others will be all over this to rubbish the idea that field position and the likelihood of expecting it to be successfully executed is not a factor that should be considered.

Can you give any other example of whether or not a penalty infringment has been committed is dependent upon field position?
 

RobLev

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Recklessly counts too

Not that that is relevant here; the argument I am opposing this that a deliberate attempt to catch the ball can be counted as an intentional knock forward. If I intend to catch the ball, I cannot at one and the same time intend to drop it. I might accidentally drop it - but saying that I intended to do so contorts language.

Again, the Law reads (in relevant part):

[LAWS] A player must not intentionally knock the ball forward with hand or arm[/LAWS]

To catch the ball, and to knock the ball, are not the same action, quite apart from the issue iof intentionality.
 

menace


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Obviously you can't attack the argument, so you attack the arguer.

Nothing new there then!

You're right it was poor form. I'm sorry. I retract my statement without reservation.
 

Dickie E


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Not that that is relevant here; the argument I am opposing this that a deliberate attempt to catch the ball can be counted as an intentional knock forward. If I intend to catch the ball, I cannot at one and the same time intend to drop it. I might accidentally drop it - but saying that I intended to do so contorts language.

Again, the Law reads (in relevant part):

[LAWS] A player must not intentionally knock the ball forward with hand or arm[/LAWS]

To catch the ball, and to knock the ball, are not the same action, quite apart from the issue iof intentionality.

I'm going to deliberately & intentionally attempt to fly to the moon tomorrow. Don't hold me accountable if I don't succeed.
 

Dickie E


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You're right it was poor form. I'm sorry. I retract my statement without reservation.

you're playing mind games now, aren't you? Nice one. He won't know what to do. He's never seen contrition before :)
 

menace


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Can you give any other example of whether or not a penalty infringment has been committed is dependent upon field position?

I was actually thinking more about assessing intent (and when YC comes into it)....but I agree I wasn't clear with that? But intended to say so!

Though when you did pose the question it did get me thinking about it...as WB didn't seem to PK not rolling when it was more centre field? :biggrin::buttkick: Also for some reason Habana's YC (in the semi) came to mind. I'm sure he didn't intentionally mean to hit the ball forward out of his #9 hands as he well knows that's illegal and worse when it's in the red zone and could get a YC, so I'm sure his intention was to just hit the hands of #9 and that's not illegal (as it was open play and I'm pretty sure habana was onside?) and so hoping #9 would drop it. Maybe he shouldn't have got a YC because he didn't intent to hit the ball. Or maybe he did intend to knock it forward..I don't know, Garces probably didn't know either but he can only go on the action.

And had that been at the other end of the field Habana would probably not have got a YC?

Anyway I'm moving on.....this is all but exhausted and we're going over the same old ground. I'm pretty sure that in reality that 99% of the time we'd probably rule it the same way and it's these 1%er that we'd have a different judgment on how we see it.
 

RobLev

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I'm going to deliberately & intentionally attempt to fly to the moon tomorrow. Don't hold me accountable if I don't succeed.

Catching a ball isn't rocket engineering; it isn't even rocket science.
 

Blackberry


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Sticking my head gingerly over the parapet.. its a deliberate knock on if the player gets a benefit from knocking it on.

Now I'm out of here, don't involve me...

Its getting like Tom and Jerry on this thread :)
 

Blackberry


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I don't believe Pegleg has a sense of humour. When he was collecting emotions he went to the cranky line first and by the time he got to the humour line they ran out.

Damn, I missed all of this as Pegleg is on my ignore list.
 
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